Styles of Mandolins

**benbonewilly** · May-18-2012, 11:54pm

Can someone tell me the difference in sound between an A model, an F Model, and an A model with an oval soundhole? I see that most Bluegrassers tend to favor the Fstyle. Why is that? More punchy sound? Someone please explain this to me. I'd like to get a new mandolin when I get to intermediate level, but I'm not sure which one to look for.

**Phil1580** · May-19-2012, 12:02am

Never played an oval hole mandolin, but I am a guitar player. Generally you will find mandolins with F holes (A5, F5) with a clearer, punchier sound as you said, and used for bluegrass. Oval holes (A4, F4) have a more mellow sound and are used quite a bit in Celtic, folk and Appalachian music I believe. I'm a rock guy and in my short mandolin career I've played first an A5 and now an F5. I'd love to try an F4.

As for sound difference, between A and F most will say there is no difference, it's a looks thing. Sound differences come from F holes vs. oval holes.

**benbonewilly** · May-19-2012, 12:09am

Thanks for the info Phil. I think I may try one of those oval soundhole versions. I think I'm looking for a more mellow/rounder sound to accompany my singing. I really like that old timey sound. I don't play a whole lot of bluegrass. I'm more of a traditional country singer. I currently have a cheap A style Epiphone. It is a good beginner mandolin, but I will be looking to upgrade. Anyone know what the best round sound hole mandolin is for 500 dollars or less? Any recommendations?

**trevor** · May-19-2012, 2:36am

In generally excepted terminology:

A style, no scroll

F style, with scroll

A4: A style oval hole
A5: A style f hole
F4 F style oval hole
F5: F style f hole

With or without scroll makes no identifiable difference to sound. Oval/f hole makes a big difference.

Oval hole, stronger bass, more resonance, warmer sound.

F hole, clearer, more projection and cut, comes with the bluegrass chop but better examples can have warmth and depth too.

Hope that helps.

**benbonewilly** · May-19-2012, 5:17am

Originally Posted by trevor

In generally excepted terminology:

A style, no scroll

F style, with scroll

A4: A style oval hole
A5: A style f hole
F4 F style oval hole
F5: F style f hole

With or without scroll makes no identifiable difference to sound. Oval/f hole makes a big difference.

Oval hole, stronger bass, more resonance, warmer sound.

F hole, clearer, more projection and cut, comes with the bluegrass chop but better examples can have warmth and depth too.

Hope that helps.

This is very useful information. What do you think are the three best models (A and F with Fholes and with Oval holes) for under 500 dollars?

**Schlegel** · May-19-2012, 5:36am

For new, kentucky makes some decent solid wood mandolins well suited to beginners, also Big Muddy is a popular flat-top model. I bet you could also find Eastman carved tops in your range. In vintage mandolins you might look at Stradolins and Gibson's Kalamazoo models. These will all be A models, whatever the hole shape. F style mandolins tend to cost quite a bit more than A style, so I'm not sure there is anything I'd be willing to call a "best" F style under $500.

**OldGus** · May-19-2012, 8:09am

I recommend, if you have money coming in, to get the Washburn M1116SW on Ebay(from Music123) for 608.13 with free shipping. I had a good experience with them and got a good instrument that was playable out of the box. I think this one would be a good exchange for you and they have a 30 guarantee return policy. I played one at the local store and I liked this model a little more than it's F style counterpart. The F was a little fuller and louder with a little better bass but the A had a little tighter response without being restricted and a little better tone. It's personal preference, you might have liked the F better and another example of the same might beat it too, who knows? This particular A had a striking back. Another seller on Ebay has actual pictures of theirs and their A's back is very pretty. The A is in line(close) to you budget and I think it would be all you need. I also like the way the bracing was tall and thin per my personal preference.

**OldGus** · May-19-2012, 8:23am

Then again, It might be worth the $80.87 extra to get the one with the actual pictures(grandcentralmusic) and know what you are getting. I saw another with a much less figured back. I recommend getting the best example you can find as the price doesn't vary that much. You could ask Music123 for an actual picture if you are interested... I also like the cast tailpiece on these and they come with a case. I should also mention that the one from Music123 has a voided warranty because it has been played.

**Tim2723** · May-19-2012, 8:30am

All good info that. In addition, some general rules of thumb include buying used (many quality bargains can be had from the Cafe classified ads), purchasing from the Cafe sponsors (well known dealers specializing in the instrument), and setting aside some of your budget for a proper set up (critical to mandolin success and often available from the sponsor sites). Searching out an instrument with solid woods - at least a solid top - and carved arching instead of pressed forming will yield better results most times. Pressed top instruments and laminated tops are known for poorer tone quality and frequent structural failures.

Good luck and welcome!

**Ed Goist** · May-19-2012, 8:32am

Hi benbonewilly; I'll be using the following terminology below:
A-style - a mandolin with a teardrop body shape, can have either ff (violin-style) soundholes or a single soundhole.
F-style - a mandolin with the "Florentine" body shape (with a scroll on the upper bass side and two points on the treble side), can have either ff (violin-style) soundholes or a single soundhole.
ff-hole - a mandolin with violin-style soundholes (can be an A-style or an F-style)
Oval hole - a mandolin with a single oval soundhole (can be an A-style or an F-style)

Originally Posted by benbonewilly

Can someone tell me the difference in sound between an A model, an F Model, and an A model with an oval soundhole?

No tonal difference based on body style (A-styles and F-styles sound the same all other things being equal).

Trevor has given a very good description above of the tonal differences between an ff-hole and an oval hole carved-top mandolin.

I'll just add that the sound coming out of an oval hole mandolin seems to surround or envelop the player, while the sound coming out of an ff-hole mandolin seems to erupt out of the instrument. Oval hole mandolins tend to have more sustain while ff-hole mandolins tend to have more projection.

Originally Posted by benbonewilly

I see that most Bluegrassers tend to favor the Fstyle. Why is that?

First and foremost, because Bill Monroe played one.

Also, because the flagship mandolins of most builders/producers are F-style, and F-style mandolins are almost always voiced (by virtue of tonewood selection and soundboard bracing) for Bluegrass music.

Originally Posted by benbonewilly

More punchy sound? Someone please explain this to me. ...snip...

Yes - "Punchy" is a very good way to describe the eruptive nature of an ff-hole instrument. However, please keep in mind that this has nothing to do with body shape. Tim O'Brien's Nugget and Jody Stecher's Miller are as punchy as any F-styles out there!

**Tim2723** · May-19-2012, 8:46am

Ed makes a good point. The F-5 style mandolin is absolutely iconic. If ever there was a kind of mandolin associated with a particular type of music, it would be the F-5 and Bluegrass (for a number of reasons). But since you're after a different sound for other musical forms, the F-5's iconic status shouldn't be the determining factor. Your instinct to look for an oval-hole instrument for the old-timey sound is pretty accurate, as a great many players specializing in that form choose them. But keep your mind (and ears) open to other possibilities.

**OldGus** · May-19-2012, 8:50am

[QUOTE= I see that most Bluegrassers tend to favor the Fstyle. Why is that? [/QUOTE]

Bluegrass mandolin playing tends toward a lot of rhythm as everyone takes turns with a solo run. F hole mandolins tend to be more well rounded in response to chords and lead runs whereas oval hole mandolins tend to shine on open notes/chords, soloing, bass response and sustain. But all of this can be challenged depending on how the body of the mandolin is constructed, it's bracing and woods used. F models tend to have a better bass response to A's although I don't have any good experience with oval hole F models to comment on those.

**benbonewilly** · May-19-2012, 11:38pm

I'd like to thank you all for your advice and input.

Based on what you are telling me, I'm going to be looking for an a style mandolin with a round/oval sound hole and a solid back and sides. Kentucky seems to have some good ones that are about what I am looking for. I may be able to save a little longer and get an EAstman. I'm not ever planning on being a "shredding" mandolin player. I like to play some fancy licks from time to time, but I'm more concerned about coming up with interesting licks and sounds than shredding. I'm learning to play some Irish music lately and really think I prefer playing it to bluegrass. I've listened to the sound of a lot of different mandolins in the stores and in good quality mandolin videos on youtube. Thanks y'all.

**Ed Goist** · May-19-2012, 11:46pm

My first mandolin was a Kentucky KM-172 and it was a superb instrument.
Let us know what you decide on.

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**benbonewilly** · May-20-2012, 2:12am

Originally Posted by Ed Goist

My first mandolin was a Kentucky KM-172 and it was a superb instrument.
Let us know what you decide on.

That looks like what I'm after. I'm sure the wife will appreciate me not breaking the bank. I already have an Epiphone A style mandolin with F-holes and a solid top. It doesn't quite produce the sound I'm looking for. I want a less "piercing" sound. Again, thank you all for your advice.

**Tim2723** · May-20-2012, 10:30am

Given all you've told us, that Kentucky that Ed shows is certainly a good contender.

Just as the F-5 is frequently associated with Bluegrass, the round-hole, flat top mandolin is often thought of as 'the Irish mandolin'. The Kentucky above combines many of the characteristics of both types. It has a single round soundhole plus the arched top of the F and A types. A very versatile instrument for someone with your interests and expectations, I think.

**benbonewilly** · May-21-2012, 8:59pm

Originally Posted by Tim2723

Given all you've told us, that Kentucky that Ed shows is certainly a good contender.

Just as the F-5 is frequently associated with Bluegrass, the round-hole, flat top mandolin is often thought of as 'the Irish mandolin'. The Kentucky above combines many of the characteristics of both types. It has a single round soundhole plus the arched top of the F and A types. A very versatile instrument for someone with your interests and expectations, I think.

Thanks so much Tim. I do like playing interesting styles, but I primarily back up me and my wife's singing. I don't have time to practice enough to be a Sam Bush or something. LOL! I'm probably going to get that Kentucky mandolin. When I first started playing mandolin about a year ago, I didn't really know what I wanted to play. I didn't realize that there was a difference between "bluegrass" and "old time string band music". I thought that everything on the O' Brother Where Art Thou sound track was called bluegrass. What I really wanted to learn to play was Old Timey music. I still love to listen to real bluegrass music, and love it, but that's not what is really "me". Thanks y'all!

**Brutus1999** · May-22-2012, 7:57am

Well, I hate to be one of those guys who asks: "Can you spend a little more over your initial plan?"....BUT...if you can go a few hundred dollars more, a Gibson A from around 1917 or so can provide the most wonderful "round hole" sound that you can imagine. But the "gamble" is that you have to make sure that it is set up well and in good shape. If so, you can have the rich sound of, well, almost like a twelve string guitar -- NOT so perfect for fast, fast fiddle tunes or jazz since the sustain might cause previous notes to hang in the air and clash with new notes, but for lots of music, it is almost hypnotic. Keep in mind that strings can make a big difference also -- some can brighten the "ching" and others can "mellow it out." I don't know if there are new round hole mandos out there that have that aged sound -- maybe?

Oh, and be prepared to invest in a "Tone Gard" to hold the mando a little off your body. They DO make a difference, especially for a round hole where you don't want to dampen the outward projection any more ....

**Tim2723** · May-22-2012, 10:10am

Originally Posted by benbonewilly

Thanks so much Tim. I do like playing interesting styles, but I primarily back up me and my wife's singing. I don't have time to practice enough to be a Sam Bush or something. LOL! I'm probably going to get that Kentucky mandolin. When I first started playing mandolin about a year ago, I didn't really know what I wanted to play. I didn't realize that there was a difference between "bluegrass" and "old time string band music". I thought that everything on the O' Brother Where Art Thou sound track was called bluegrass. What I really wanted to learn to play was Old Timey music. I still love to listen to real bluegrass music, and love it, but that's not what is really "me". Thanks y'all!

Well, with all that said I really think the oval hole arch top is for you. It's absolutely Old-Timey, very much Irish, and there's a little Vivaldi and Italian folk inside there waiting to come out. There's even a few Bluegrass notables that use them, as well as Jazz players and Americana enthusiasts. It's pretty much a Jack-of-all-trades instrument. The Kentucky line is a very good, affordable brand and one that holds its value well for the day you trade up to the Gibson A that Brutus mentions.

There are other brands and models to choose from, but in general the oval-hole A would be hard to beat for someone like you. They play just about anything, they're very good for accompaniment, they record well, they aren't any harder (or easier) to amplify than any other mandolin (if those things are important to you), and you can upgrade without much difficulty. Sure, there are players who get into a specific genre and want a more 'optimized' design, but I really don't see any downsides for you.

**pefjr** · May-22-2012, 11:54am

From my experience, I can hear lots of difference in an A and F model. The A simply does not measure up to the F model, not in the intermediate and professional levels. This has nothing to do with Bluegrass Music. F holes are stereo. Oval is mono.

**Capt. E** · May-22-2012, 12:05pm

Originally Posted by Brutus1999

Well, I hate to be one of those guys who asks: "Can you spend a little more over your initial plan?"....BUT...if you can go a few hundred dollars more, a Gibson A from around 1917 or so can provide the most wonderful "round hole" sound that you can imagine. But the "gamble" is that you have to make sure that it is set up well and in good shape. If so, you can have the rich sound of, well, almost like a twelve string guitar -- NOT so perfect for fast, fast fiddle tunes or jazz since the sustain might cause previous notes to hang in the air and clash with new notes, but for lots of music, it is almost hypnotic. Keep in mind that strings can make a big difference also -- some can brighten the "ching" and others can "mellow it out." I don't know if there are new round hole mandos out there that have that aged sound -- maybe?

Oh, and be prepared to invest in a "Tone Gard" to hold the mando a little off your body. They DO make a difference, especially for a round hole where you don't want to dampen the outward projection any more ....

I agree here. If you would like to have a vintage instrument, the Gibson A's are hard to beat, and you can very often find one in quite nice condition for well under 1k.
Now, to confuse things further, one of my favorite mandolins is my 1937 Gibson A-00. It is an A body with ff holes. This design evolved into the Gibson Model A40 and A50 that were made well into the 1960's. The best ones can be quite good indeed and they almost always sell for less than most Gibson mandolins. I got mine for $600 and spent around $200 into having it put into top condition. As you would expect from an ff hole mandolin, it has great punch, but is also warm and rich in the low end. I wouldn't trade it for most mandolins costing 2K.
There has been brief mention of the Big Muddy (previously called Mid-Missouri) and Flatiron flat-top instruments; they are very well made oval hole instruments that are rather popular with Old Time/Folk players. You can purchase a brand new Big Muddy for your $500 budget.

**JeffD** · May-22-2012, 12:07pm

Originally Posted by pefjr

From my experience, I can hear lots of difference in an A and F model. The A simply does not measure up to the F model, not in the intermediate and professional levels. This has nothing to do with Bluegrass Music. F holes are stereo. Oval is mono.

Hang on. You are conflusing F holes and oval holes, and F style and A style.

You can get the stereo effect with an F hole A style mandolin. Melody out of one f hole and chord backup out the other.

**pefjr** · May-22-2012, 1:37pm

Originally Posted by JeffD

Melody out of one f hole and chord backup out the other.

Plays itself? and 'like butter' too, I suppose?

**Tim2723** · May-22-2012, 5:12pm

That has to be the weirdest thing ever said here. Stereo? I'll bet he meant something we don't get. Benefit of the doubt guys.

**pefjr** · May-22-2012, 7:52pm

Originally Posted by Tim2723

That has to be the weirdest thing ever said here. Stereo? I'll bet he meant something we don't get. Benefit of the doubt guys.

No, f holes have a stereo effect with the bass and treble stronger near their respective hole. Nothing weird intended. You can verify this by holding your mandolin body up by your ear, putting the bass f hole near your ear and picking a G string, then an E string. Then do it with the treble f hole. The closer the string, the stronger the sound. As many have noted, a mandolin player does not hear exactly what his/her audience is hearing. This is separate from the F and A model sound comparison.