crosspicking pattern

[hhold]

Hi,

what up/down stroke pattern would you apply to this crosspicking pattern
4th string, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd etc.?

Ta

[david blair]

Maybe you maen 4, 2, 3?
I suppose a proper jig is d-d-u, d-d-u. 6/8 time. Maybe your tune calls for another pattern.

At a Radim Zenkl workshop he said to practice all 15 different patterns. I kinda scratched my head about that, 15? Anyway, the idea is to purposefully practice as many variations you can imagine. Right hand "tongue twisters" I call them.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

True crosspicking would probably use DDU. You can also use alternating picking. Jig picking is most often played DUD. Which you use depends on the meter of the tune and the effect you want.

Cheers
MRT

[jbrwky]

In 4/4 time you have to have 8 notes per bar. One pattern Mike Marshall uses is DUU DUU DU. On the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings it would go...423 423 42 423 423 42 etc.

[Trevor Thomas]

It would depend on what kind of tune it was, where it came in the tune. If it was a slow air, I'd cheerfully use all downstrokes. If it was a super fast arpeggio then I'd also look at doing all downstrokes. I'd consider a down down up if I particularly wanted to have a downstroke next - if the next note was wanting a bit more emphasis.

If it were in the middle of a jig, I'd probably stick with a Down Up Down, because this is my 'default' for the rhythm of jigs. If it were in the middle of a reel, I might find it easier to stick with alternate.

A lot of people seem to get hung up on what the 'right' way to pick is. Learning patterns can be useful, but the main thing to think about is the music, and what sounds the most appropriate for the context. Instead of learning it one way, I think it's worth learning it several ways, then when you get to apply it, then you get to pick how to go about doing it.

[MandoSquirrel]

The string sequence noted in the OP is the typical McReynolds roll, played downstroke, upstroke upstroke.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

The string sequence noted in the OP is the typical McReynolds roll, played downstroke, upstroke upstroke.

The OP's 432 432 ... is a forward roll, which usually would be picked DDU DDU
423 423 ... is the backward roll, which would use DUU DUU

Cheers
MRT

[MandoSquirrel]

The OP's 432 432 ... is a forward roll, which usually would be picked DDU DDU
423 423 ... is the backward roll, which would use DUU DUU

Cheers
MRT

Okay, you're right, another case of brain taking a break, I guess.
I even looked at it several times,wondering why everybody seemed to be reading the pattern backward, when all along it was me!

[August Watters]

Ah, crosspicking -- my favorite quasi-religious mandolin topic.

You guys have already nailed it, but if anyone's new to crosspicking it's worth mentioning that the DDU forward roll thing for strings 4-3-2 sums up the "standard" approach -- but an alternative and more modern approach (as Mark mentioned) is to use alternate picking DUD - UDU - DU. The two approaches don't sound the same, but they're both in use today. What they have in common is emphasizing the rhythmic pattern of strong and weak notes:

Sww Sww Sw (or variations)

The disagreement that sometimes comes up regarding crosspicking is: does the word "crosspicking" refer to this pattern of rhythmic accents? Or does it refer specifically to the picking pattern that produces those accents?

I think when you begin learning crosspicking it's important to pick one approach or the other, and focus on getting those accents in the right place while you internalize the feel of the pick direction. Once it's second nature, you might want to investigate the other technique -- just don't try to learn them both at the same time!

[jramsey]

First off, I come from a bluegrass background and am speaking from that perspective. I agree that the way to crosspick the OP's original pattern is to use DDU. I do not agree that DDU is a standard crosspicking pattern on the mandolin, or that alternate picking across strings is a modern version of crosspicking*. The reason I say it's not a "standard" approach to modern bluegrass crosspicking is that I don't know any working mandolinists in bluegrass today who use the DDU rolls. It's either McReynolds or alternating. I certainly don't know anyone who mixes the forward and reverse rolls together AT A HIGH LEVEL. I associate the DDU pattern with the guitar crosspicking of George Shuffler, and the only players I've seen that use the DDU pattern on mando are those that learned Shuffler style on guitar first and then transferred it over to the mandolin. Combining rolls in the same phrase works against your momentum (this is why I dislike Cochran's book). Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule, but how many of those guys are out there working today and really utilizing the combination of these techniques? No one that I can think of. If I were to encounter the OP's example with no need for the specific articulation of DDU, I would use alternating pick direction. As always, your methods and ideas may vary.

*A pretty heated debate on the definition of crosspicking took place here a few months back. I did not bring this up to start any debates, life's too short to argue over miniscule definitions. I'll define it the way I see fit, you do the same.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

First off, I come from a bluegrass background and am speaking from that perspective. I agree that the way to crosspick the OP's original pattern is to use DDU. I do not agree that DDU is a standard crosspicking pattern on the mandolin, or that alternate picking across strings is a modern version of crosspicking*. The reason I say it's not a "standard" approach to modern bluegrass crosspicking is that I don't know any working mandolinists in bluegrass today who use the DDU rolls. It's either McReynolds or alternating.

So is McReynolds style strictly reverse roll playing? I thought I read an interview where he talked about FW and Rev rolls, but maybe he was just drawing a comparison between the two.

CHeers
MRT

[August Watters]

I agree that the way to crosspick the OP's original pattern is to use DDU. I do not agree that DDU is a standard crosspicking pattern on the mandolin, or that alternate picking across strings is a modern version of crosspicking*.

Hang on, I think you've made a leap: I agree that DDU is not "standard," DUU, as you point out, is the standard McReynolds pattern. DDU would be the variation that addresses the OP's question and I agree, it's not the default setting.

I also agree, the "debate" comes down to a matter of how you use words. I hear the word "crosspicking" used both ways: for McReynolds-style picking, and alternate-picking applied to the same accent pattern.

I use both approaches, and am happy defining "crosspicking" either way.

[jramsey]

So is McReynolds style strictly reverse roll playing? I thought I read an interview where he talked about FW and Rev rolls, but maybe he was just drawing a comparison between the two.

CHeers
MRT

Hi Mark, hope you are well. I just flipped through my copy of Andy Statman's Jesse McReynolds book, and there is not one single forward roll in the whole book. There are also no forward rolls in the Tottle book or transcriptions, and none that I have witnessed in any transcription of Jesse that I've ever done. Does this mean Jesse never used a forward roll... of course not, Jesse is the king of innovation and I'm sure he's used lots of tricks once or twice, but his crosspicking style revolves around reverse rolls and alternate picking with the upstroke on the down beat.

August, I hope you will take some time and read the thread that I attached, there are some great insights on why, from an educational standpoint, one would choose to distinguish the difference in alternate picking across strings and crosspicking. Lots of great insight from your former colleague John McGann on that thread that I consider the gospel. Like I said in my last post on this thread..... you go to your church, I'll go to mine.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Thanks Jordan, good info there that I didn't know!

Cheers
MRT

[August Watters]

August, I hope you will take some time and read the thread that I attached, there are . . . Lots of great insight from your former colleague John McGann on that thread that I consider the gospel.

Hi Jordan -- first, let me say I am intimately acquainted with John McGann's teaching and performing and teaching approaches. I knew John for nearly 30 years. He performed in my student recitals long ago, and our professional paths crossed many times through the years. He would have played in my recent faculty recital, but his mother had a stroke the day before. We had some differences in perspective which should not be aired now that he's gone, but there was also respect between us.

there are some great insights on why, from an educational standpoint, one would choose to distinguish the difference in alternate picking across strings and crosspicking.

In my previous post, I made exactly that distinction (with slightly different language), so we're all agreed: these two approaches are not the same, and do not sound the same, and should not be confused with each other. But because they do not sound the same, they each have a different kind of value. As a teacher, understanding both has enabled me to help students on both guitar and mandolin to find their own voice following one path or the other. Here's what John said about it on Feb. 19:

Mickey's book is cross string alternate picking, not McReynolds style. You can apply Jesse's picking patterns to many of the examples, and the music in the book is all good and valid, how about if we call it a 'different take' on crosspicking...

That's good enough for me!

[jramsey]

Hi August, thank you for your response, taking the time to read that thread, and for sharing details about your relationship with John. I agree that all of these different techniques have value, and from a teaching perspective, it's important to have a broad spectrum of tools in your toolkit. In that same vein, I also think it's important to properly classify those techniques. The only reason I chimed in to begin with is that in your first post you called alternate string picking, crosspicking, and I chose to disagree with that statement. I also wanted to establish that, in the real bluegrass mandolin world, very few people use the DDU roll. You are obviously a respected player and teacher, and I have no interest in creating animosity between us over such a miniscule definition, but I also think that healthy debates are what this forum is all about. Your statement was geared towards "anyone new to crosspicking", and I just wanted to clarify for those folks that this definition first meant something other than cross string picking. Whenever this debate comes up I always chuckle and think about John's statement, "I think it's a little imprecise calling a hammer "scissors"". I always respected his knowledge and humor on this forum, and I would love to know the situation that prompted him to create a whole page on his website devoted to establishing the difference between crosspicking and alternate picking. I always assumed it was his reaction to Cochran's book, but now realize that it could have stemmed from arguing with you. I kid.

I always appreciated his stance and input on the subject because it helped distinguish Jesse and George's innovative styles from things that happened later that gradually got grouped in with the term crosspicking (even though they weren't the same thing, as we've both agreed... completely different right-hand approach and articulation). If all situations where multiple strings ringing together starts getting grouped in to this now catch-all phrase, the general public will eventually stop understanding what true crosspicking really is and what that definition really means. This is already happening here on this forum and, now that John's gone, I kinda feel like I'm all alone in trying to hold on to these important distictions. I guess it comes down to how precise you want to be with your definition. The reality is that most people don't care, so they can use whatever definition they want. Just one more reason that I always add the obligitory, YMMV.

Sorry if I come off as argumentative, I'm obviously very passionate about this subject and personally think that it is important to distinguish the difference between the styles. I'm just trying to be a good teacher, like John McGann and yourself, and provide accuracy to those people who do care. My favorite post from John on that old thread:

"Of course Dan Crary, Mike Marshall, Chris Thile are exemplary musicians, and they can call whatever they do whatever they want.
So can anybody who just bought their first Morgan Monroe.

Tony Rice doesn't alternate pick, he doesn't "call" it anything other than "common sense". Alternate picking will not get you into the Tony Rice zone, even if you play his lines note for note. His phrasing, timing and feel are connected with how he picks.

The only reason I present that there is a distinction between alternate picking and crosspicking is that it yields different articulations. Articulation is a word that most plectrum players don't think about, but wind and bowed string players live there. It's the way the notes speak, and the rhythmic effect that the articulation has on the musical line being played.

I am not only a musician, but also a teacher, and function, in Matt Glaser's words "as a clearing house for ideas". When someone is asking me, as a teacher, if it 'really makes a difference', it would be irresponsible for me to say 'whatever works, man...' The truth is obvious in the differences in the sound. Play the bridge of "Stoney Creek" with DUU style picking a la Jesse, and then with alternate picking. It is not the same.

Someone usually rises at this point and says something like "well, if you were such a hot shot, you could put accents on the upstrokes to get the same effect". Theoretically-sure. In reality- downstrokes and upstrokes sound different, especially if you use rest strokes (one of the important factors in the DDU phrasing).

Specific sounds sometimes require specific techniques. Anything else is an approximation. Life is short, so either 'close enough' is OK, or life is too short for 'close enough'.

Is it micro-dweeby, micro-nerdy to be so (pun intended) picky? I don't know, is it micro-nerdy when your carpenter, plumber, car mechanic, dentist, surgeon really pays attention to the fine points and details? Is Jackson Pollack the same as Magritte?

Whether you agree or think I'm just a windbag, I wish everyone great fun and great music. "

Cheers to you, hope to have the opportunity to play some music together someday. Take care.

[August Watters]

Jordan, thanks for your kind words and summary. I think we've agreed on everything, except how to describe what we've agreed on. I stand by my first post, except as Jordan has pointed out, DDU is rare -- I called it "standard" in the sense that an (admittedly rare) combination of notes posed by the OP would likely be played by a McReynolds forward roll. It's not the usual approach to crosspicking, but it addresses the OP's question.

If this was a festival, we'd be picking instead of dissecting language. But festival season's almost here!