Chord Chart Frustration

[Tim Griffin]

I find it frustrating when chord chart makers insist on showing 2 dozen the variations of how top play an A, then an A minor, A minor 7, blah blah then a B etc... on their charts, Do they not play songs or tune backing? I want to play songs, generally in a position starting with first. I find the 1, 4, 5, 6 and 3 are the chords usually used in any song or tune if it is in a major key. If I have those I can get up and running right away. Sorry for the rant, it just makes more sense to me.

[Bernie Daniel]

I'm not sure I understand the problem. Can't you just pick out the formations you want to use and ignore the rest?

[journeybear]

Sounds to me like the charts you are looking at or thinking about are arranged in alphabetical order, making it easy to look up a chord by name. For chord patterns of a circle of fifths nature there is that useful chart. With these two basic resources one should be able to sort out how to construct chord patterns with desired voicings for most songs. Sometimes it is instructive to look at the fingerings for guitar chords that appear on sheet music to see the movement from chord to chord, and try to find mandolin chord patterns with similar movement; in these cases an alpha list is really helpful.

[Mandobart]

I understand that the layout of the typical chord book is not helpful when applied to actual song playing. I have these ancient guitar books for bands I listened to as a kid (Eagles, Bob Dylan, Dead, Neil Young) that have the sheet music, lyrics and chords all displayed together. But instead of just the chord name there is a chord chart in each location. Takes up space, even when printed so small that only a teenager could read it. But that is how I learned guitar chords as a kid. I would be surprised if anyone put such a thing together for mandolin.

Of course you could make your own using one of these links, and cut-n-paste in a document with lyrics, etc.

[Phil Vinyard]

I did something similar for my students & posted it a while back. Here is the link: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...urvival+chords. Go towards the end of the post to the March 11th entry for the most cleaned up revision and download the .pdf file.

I'm a big advocate of 3-string closed chords. Last night at a jam, a locally famous old-time fiddle player was there and she broke into a very fast tune in b-flat. The guitar & banjo folks were scrambling for a capo, I just took my A-major chord system up a half step and I was good to go.

[Bernie Daniel]

Very cool graphic Phil! Clever way to lay it out! Thanks for sharing. I think I'll make up a similar one for mandola and mandocello this week and post it as well.

[John Kelly]

Very useful resource, this chart you compiled, Phil. Interestingly I find that I too play closed position chords on guitar at our monthly open sessions and note that many of the others reach for their capos (and often then ask which fret to put them on!) when a singer moves away from the open keys.

[JeffD]

I am much better at learning a system than I am at learning a bunch of seemingly disconnected facts. I am pretty good at coming up with the individual facts if I learn the system of which they are a part. I would rather learn about gravity, than that a pencil will fall when you drop it, and a chair will fall when you drop it, and a spoon will fall when you drop it, and a cat will fall when you drop it, and...

So chord charts in general have always frustrated me. They always seemed to be a huge great pile of individual examples, from which it seemed impossible to gleen out a system.

Phil I remember your chart and I love it because after playing with it only a little while, most folks should be able to gleen out the system that underlies it, and then its off to the races.

[luthierseye]

Tim, I think I understand what you are getting at; here's what I think you you should understand: What I find with the many variations of each chord is to provide different positions and different voicings for each chord. For instance, if you have to move to an Am from a particular chord, then you have several options so that you can choose the easiest formation to get to OR you might have to choose another fingering that's voicing is more suitable for the particular song melody you are playing/singing. I personally find this very helpful in lots of tunes on the Octave and Mandola as some four string chord voicings just don't fit a particular song melody/flow. I hope this helps.

[Bernie Daniel]

And likewise don't forget a handy double-stop can be a lifesaver when you have a tough chord formation change. Especially true as you approach the mandocello? I'm not 100% sure about that last comment yet - -still exploring.

[dmcginnis]

The idea of double stops combined with ther chord patterns up and down the neck provides a versatile option for backing. Last summer, I too DADGAD guitar from all-Ireland champ Josh Dukes at the CCE music and dance (CCE MAD) camp here in the DC area and he taught the combination. I am now trying to convert that learning to GDAD on my zouk. It really allows for a variety of approaches to mix double stops with various chords and modal/movable chords. I have to agree with Tim, the OP, that a well organized chord chart in different keys combined with appropriate double stops could help us learners a lot.

[Ed Goist]

And likewise don't forget a handy double-stop can be a lifesaver when you have a tough chord formation change. Especially true as you approach the mandocello? I'm not 100% sure about that last comment yet - -still exploring.

I've basically become a GDAE tenor guitar guy over the past 3 months, and the main reason is that I've always been more of a chord and rhythm guy than a melody guy, and chords (all voicings) just sound better on a longer scale instrument.

This is particularly true of double stop chords, such as the Power Chords: 2-2-X-X = A, 4-2-X-X = E, X-3-3-X = F.

Frankly, the moment I played the Power Chord sequence G (0-0-X-X) C (5-5-X-X) D (7-7-X-X) on a GDAE tenor guitar, I knew it would become my main instrument.

[Bernie Daniel]

I've basically become a GDAE tenor guitar guy over the past 3 months, and the main reason is that I've always been more of a chord and rhythm guy than a melody guy, and chords (all voicings) just sound better on a longer scale instrument.

This is particularly true of double stop chords, such as the Power Chords: 2-2-X-X = A, 4-2-X-X = E, X-3-3-X = F.

Frankly, the moment I played the Power Chord sequence G (0-0-X-X) C (5-5-X-X) D (7-7-X-X) on a GDAE tenor guitar, I knew it would become my main instrument.

Very cool!

[Tom Wright]

I have not tried simply learning a bunch of chords on their own---when I was learning guitar I simply saw the tabs for chords shown above the tune in a songbook. So I always learned chords in context, as needed.

Even though violin players learn scales, they typically spend much more time on the stuff that is musical. I would not waste time with a catalog of chords, but just learn songs. Here's the rub: good players don't use any old chord shape, but rather the one that follows smoothly from the previous one, as luthierseye noted. In particular, this always means you try to find a common note or two that are shared by the new chord and the previous one. An example in GDAE tuning, G chord 0-0-2-3 allows moving to the C chord (IV) with the outer pitches constant, 0-2-3-3. It ties the music together, makes for a connected feeling and graceful finger shift.

Then again, when you need drama, you choose a chord which sounds like something new. Walking power chords up and down makes them melodies in themselves, a kind of drama because they become the focus. You could go from the smallish-sounding x-5-2-3 G chord to 0-2-3-3 C chord and open up the sound for color. This kind of subtlety is rare or nonexistent in a songbook, but doing it enough is how you learn to hear those opportunities, and how you notice other players doing this.

The subject was called voice leading in Bach's time. The goal was to have constructive independence between the melody and the bass, typically contrary motion or one steady while the other moved. And interior voices, i.e. the harmony, always looked for some notes to stay the same between harmony shifts. It is always important in jazz--it is where the easy, smooth sound comes from, even though harmonies might be complicated. It is why they like thick 4 and 5-note chords, that is, 5 different note names, not repeats. It makes it easier to find the constant pitch in the next chord.

Lastly, knowing the constant pitch makes it easy to improvise, since you can usually find one pitch that is OK through an entire chorus. One teacher in Chicago would have his students take a solo chorus in a jazz standard using only one pitch. (The tonic usually is safe.)

So use your ear to hear the unchanging notes in a song. Often the melody will show you. And in low range like an OM you benefit from having the open strings droning, not changing pitch. So you look for opportunities to use just a couple of fretted pitches. Sara Jaroz shows this in a video of her playing a guitar-bodied OM. She is doing almost all the harmony on the low strings, holding the uppers constant.

[luthierseye]

I'm not sure. Shhhh

[wblakesx]

re voicings- the different form for each chord puts a different note in the soprano, maybe a third, fifth or a root. This can be very desirable.

[michaelpthompson]

I'm a big advocate of 3-string closed chords.

OK, I'm a bit curious. I know the concept of 4-finger closed chords, but if there are four string pairs and you're only fretting three of them, how is it closed?

[Mike Bunting]

OK, I'm a bit curious. I know the concept of 4-finger closed chords, but if there are four string pairs and you're only fretting three of them, how is it closed?

They are 3 fingered closed chords, not 4 fingered note closed chords.

[mandolinlee]

michaelpthomson:
When I use three-finger chords, I mute the unfretted string (usually the E string) with the index finger. Sometimes the unfretted string will be the G, then just don't pick it.
With practicing a few times, you'll find it works.
Lee

[Markus]

Michael, for example ... often when playing the Stones tune Dead Flowers with my rock group, I prefer the D chord as 245x. 3 finger, closed shape that works in that genre where I do not want that E string playing a 3rd or 5th on top of the chord, nor an open ringing chord during verse and solo (sometimes using open chords for part of a song is effective and works wonders in that genre, but it is terrible when the guitar wants to solo in that same register).

Along with the A 2245 closed shape (or portions of it) those forms get a workout when I play in my rock group.

[Phil Vinyard]

I got the concept for the 3-string closed chords from a master class with Radim Zenkl at Kaufman Kamp. I don't remember his exact quote, but he told us it was perfectly respectable to play chords with just three strings. That got me started.

I just usually mute the E string while I'm playing the others. No big problem.

Just to further the conversation, I have attached anther version of the chart I am messing with. This has not been closely edited, but see what you think and if it helps.

[John Kelly]

Phil says above: "I got the concept for the 3-string closed chords from a master class with Radim Zenkl at Kaufman Kamp. I don't remember his exact quote, but he told us it was perfectly respectable to play chords with just three strings."

Remember that all basic chords are triads or 3-note chords - the 1st 3rd and 5th of the scale, the 3rd being the crucial one in that if played as a natural it gives the major chord and if flattened by a semitone it gives the minor chord. All the other notes in a chord are there to add to this basic building block - remember that when a guitar player plays an open G chord across 6 strings there are only G-B-D-G-B-G notes being played, i.e the 1st, 3rd and 5th of the scale. The late, great Freddie Greene, who played with the Count Basie band, regularly comped with 3-note chords, and that in a jazz setting.

[Ted Eschliman]

More 3-note chord fun: Vamps
Part 1 Creating energy with Diatonic triads
Part 2 Expanding the Diatonic triads
Part 3 Scurry Dominants
Part 4 Circle of fifths