Laminate woods

[Schlegel]

Actually I think you you have that backwards. I've seen more solid Strads than I've ever seen laminated. The early models I've seen have all been solid.

Just the impression I had, but I could well be mistaken. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I'll see if I can't find the dates on the examples I've got. I think I have 2 solid tops and 3 laminated? I know one of the all-ply ones is 30's for certain.

[MikeEdgerton]

Just the impression I had, but I could well be mistaken. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I'll see if I can't find the dates on the examples I've got. I think I have 2 solid tops and 3 laminated? I know one of the all-ply ones is 30's for certain.

We both posted pictures in this thread. That oval hole has to be one of the cheaper models and it was solid. Most of the ply models I've seen were late, into the 50's. That all mahogany model that pops up now and again and very few others. From what I've seen I first make the assumption they are solid and then I'm shocked if they aren't.

[Tavy]

What is the point using it for backs? Backs do not vibrate the same way as tops and my understanding is that theoretically almost anything will do for the back. Take aluminium bodied mandos for instance.

Backs certainly do vibrate and contribute significantly to the bass response of the instrument. Folks wouldn't go to the trouble of carving the backs if there was no benefit.

[JeffD]

I'm pretty sure David Grisman or Sam Bush could make an inexpensive all laminate mandolin sound better than I would if I was playing an original Lloyd Loar Gibson F5. There is something to be said for adding talent to the mix.

I don't know where to go with that. Because I am sure that Dave Grisman and Sam Bush could make a solid wood arch top sound even better than that laminate. I only apply the talent that I have, and I would apply it to what ever mandolin was in front of me, solid or laminate.

I think the real confounding factor is the quality of the rest of the instrument. I have played both, and I sound a lot better on a solid wood mandolin. But the laminates I have played were poorly made cheapo mandolins, so my data point is not enough to base a decision on.

[Schlegel]

We both posted pictures in this thread. That oval hole has to be one of the cheaper models and it was solid. Most of the ply models I've seen were late, into the 50's. That all mahogany model that pops up now and again and very few others. From what I've seen I first make the assumption they are solid and then I'm shocked if they aren't.

OK, I checked and I have 2 1935 solid wood Stradolins, a 1938 ply Stradolin, an illegible date ply Stradolin identical to the 1938, and a ply oval hole Stradolin that I can't find a date on that must be 50's or 60's, it looks so new.

[the padma]

Plywood sucks as a tone wood...however laminated veneers are A1.

Me often build me prototypes with 3 ply mahogany paneling...Quick, dirty and cheap. \now dig this...they often sound just as good if not gooder than the high end copy made from high grade lutz, sitka , cedars or any of the conifers. NOn the less the B.S.* and stigma of "ply wood" is a tough one to loose.

So me asks, what we gonna build with when the wood be all gone? Probably hemp composite or maybe our number one, fastest growing natural resource...you got it....recycled plastics. Don't ya just love the thought.


blessings
thus spake
duh Padma

* B.S. as in belief systems, many of which are just pure b.s. and just another one of lifes "oh wells"

[belbein]

Are you making your own 3 play mahogany laminate? or do you literally mean "paneling" like from Home Depot?

Do you find that you can make tops thinner, since they should be stronger than "real" wood?

[the padma]

Home Depot, 3 ply mahogany, comes in oak and birch and a few other woods as well.

Of course the Russian or Baltic 3ply birch is really the best, not much of a grain pattern, but
stains nice and finishes well.


blessings

[CES]

Backs certainly do vibrate and contribute significantly to the bass response of the instrument. Folks wouldn't go to the trouble of carving the backs if there was no benefit.

Totally agree with you, and I think the best way to hear this difference is with guitars (available and easy to demo)...go to a shop and play 3 instruments with similar solid spruce tops but with maple b/s, mahogany b/s, and rosewood b/s. The differences are pretty pronounced...

The truly "double backed" instruments I've seen were for people who wanted the look of, say, maple but the tone of mahogany or RW (or whatever combination of those +/- Koa you can think of). So, the inner wood functions as the tonewood, while the outer is primarily cosmetic...I remember seeing a luthier in the midwest who was doing this on pretty high end instruments and was featured in either Acoustic Guitar or FB Journal...

Also, agree that a well built laminate instrument will sound better than a poorly built all solid much of the time. My brother has a Sigma ("by Martin") dread that is a really good sounding all laminate guitar. While I don't think it's as good as my Guild D-40 or Taylor 714, it's better than a lot of the 200-500 dollar solid topped guitars out there I've played recently.

My preference is for all solid, and if buying online I almost always default to that preference, but I would never discount an instrument that sounded or played good just because there was laminate involved...

[macjansson]

Plywood sucks as a tone wood...however laminated veneers are A1.

Me often build me prototypes with 3 ply mahogany paneling...Quick, dirty and cheap. \now dig this...they often sound just as good if not gooder than the high end copy made from high grade lutz, sitka , cedars or any of the conifers. NOn the less the B.S.* and stigma of "ply wood" is a tough one to loose.

So me asks, what we gonna build with when the wood be all gone? Probably hemp composite or maybe our number one, fastest growing natural resource...you got it....recycled plastics. Don't ya just love the thought.


blessings
thus spake
duh Padma

* B.S. as in belief systems, many of which are just pure b.s. and just another one of lifes "oh wells"

When all the wood be gone there's no more building mandolins or building anything of any kind.

[MikeEdgerton]

The late Strad is probably the 50's, the two identical laminated ones would make sense. Perhaps they moved production of a model or model year. As none of us really know who built them they could have been sourced all over. I've owned 6 or seven. Only one was laminated wood.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't know where to go with that. Because I am sure that Dave Grisman and Sam Bush could make a solid wood arch top sound even better than that laminate...

I'm not arguing that point, I'm simply saying that in the hands of a better player a crappy instrument "will probably" sound better than someone playing a great instrument with less talent. It's rather like putting me in a bike race with Lance Armstrong. Lance on a crappy bike is gonna beat me even if I'm riding a state of art bicycle.

[belbein]

Honorable Padma: Am I correct in assuming that you use only the 3 ply paneling as your top, not that you laminate it to something else? Do you add tone bars or is the top barless?

[belbein]

I know this string is getting old now, but here's an interesting piece of information. I was talking to a woodworker yesterday whose wife is a professional harpist. (She has, by the way, "a dozen" harps--imagine that scattered around your living room! It puts all those different mandolins in a different perspective, doesn't it?) Anyway, he said that the soundboard of a harp is laminated from at least three different kinds of wood, because it needs to take hundreds of pounds of strain from all those strings.

So I asked, Why not put a metal reinforcing rod down through or under the soundboard (thinking truss rod)? He said, You could, but none of the harpists would let you, because its not the way harps are made.

So:
mandos: truss rods ok but laminate soundboards not;
harps: truss rods NOT ok but laminate soundboards OK.

[Leroy]

There is nothing inherently wrong with using engineered wood to build stringed instruments. Many successful ones, as stated by previous posters, have been built and played in the last hundred years. I've built a few boats and a lot of stringed instruments in my lifetime, so have considerable experience with both. The secret is to use it appropriately. It can be the best material choice in many instances. I'll give a few examples of how I've used quality plywood in my builds.

Boat building:

I've built five boats from dinghies to ocean sailing sailboats. All had plywood used in their construction. Here is a photo of me during my Aleutka build. The design called for a fiberglass hull laid up over a male mold made from plywood bulkheads and wood stringers. This made for a very strong and ridged structure.



I later developed an acoustic instrument male mold building method. I have used this many times and am very happy with the results I get. I build a plywood/hardwood mold which is sheathed with the body woods. Here is a photo of a mandolin under construction using this method.



And then there is my Heretic Harp guitar. This was an experiment to see if an acoustic HG could be built using a hard chined plywood body and hollow neck. I am always amazed at how good this instrument sounds when I make an attempt at playing it.





Click here to go to my website to see other finished photos, construction photos, video explanation, and a short sound sample recorded through the MiSi Trio preamp and under saddle transducer.

With the rapidly dwindling supply of good traditional tonewoods, I think it would be prudent to explore other options.

Now get out into the garage and build something.

[belbein]

Leroy, I'm very interested in that first picture of the "male mold" building method. Is the structure on the left a mold, or is it the internal frame of the instrument? If you weren't a boatbuilder I wouldn't ask, but that looks an awful lot like the way I built mine.

[Leroy]

Leroy, I'm very interested in that first picture of the "male mold" building method. Is the structure on the left a mold, or is it the internal frame of the instrument? If you weren't a boatbuilder I wouldn't ask, but that looks an awful lot like the way I built mine.

Both.

Click here and here for more photos and explanations.

[belbein]

This is fascinating. You might be the Phil Bolger of instrument building.

I'm sure you add some weight with the internal structure. How does it affect the sound?

Last question: on the mandolin, given that your top and bottom plates now no longer have to perform a structural function, they perform a much more purely musical function. So are you able to thin them and thus make them more (whatever word I use here is going to be wrong) resonant?

[Leroy]

This is fascinating. You might be the Phil Bolger of instrument building.

I'm sure you add some weight with the internal structure. How does it affect the sound?

Last question: on the mandolin, given that your top and bottom plates now no longer have to perform a structural function, they perform a much more purely musical function. So are you able to thin them and thus make them more (whatever word I use here is going to be wrong) resonant?

That's high praise as I'm a big fan of Phil and his designs. In fact, I built his Thomaston Galley design twice. Best boat I ever rowed.

The internal framework only adds a few oz at most. It's a good trade off for the added rigidity, ease and speed of building, and it eliminates the need for female molds to hold parts during construction.

I weighed both my International Violin kit mandolin and my Freakin' A mandolin and there is only 1 ounce difference.

2 lb 2 oz


2 lb 3 oz


You might be interested in my Octolin mandolin also. It's slightly larger and the body is made from myrtle wood so is a little heavier.

2 lb 13 oz


The back and side form a strong ridged sound chamber when glued to the frame. The top is free to do it's job as the air pump diaphragm. The sides, back, and top are all made to the normal dimensions.

This build method allows me to make about any size or shape instrument without being restricted by my jig and mold investment.

Cheers,

[belbein]

This is what I understand from studying your photos and knowing Bolger's method. (I studied the photos like the CIA photoanalysts study buildings in the Iran desert!) You cut a form out of what looks like 7 ply furniture grade plywood (it looked like birch, maybe?). Or, I suppose, two forms, top and bottom. You install pegs/separators. The top form goes on top of the bottom form and they are joined by pegs which are glued and screwed. Then you build thinnish veneers around/on top of that. So the forms--which become the internal structure of the instrument--are like "forms" that other luthiers build around, but they're integral to the instrument. Right?

[Leroy]

Yes, most of the Male Mold becomes part of the final instrument. Examine these photos. It's better than me trying to explain it.

Hollow Neck Lap Steel Guitar

Teardrop Bouzouki Construction Photos

Hope this clears things up a bit.

[kkmm]

Is laminated wood good for instruments ? Now I am positive it could be.
Last weekend, I tried one Fender tenor ukulele with laminated koa as the top, the sound quality just blows me off.
I have tried quite a few tenor ukuleles (including the one with solid woods) and nothing sound like this. No wonder why it as 5 stars rating from buyers. I plan to buy one of these.

[Hobo]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems 'carved' sound boards on mandolins are similar to how violins are made. Any decent violin starts with sound boards that are thick and then carved with very precise control to reach the optimum curve/thicknesses needed to produce the best tone. Laminate sound boards are not able to be shaped with carving tools... they need to be pressed into shape – which is a cheaper/easier method. They will not have the same acoustic properties as a sound board carved from a solid piece of wood. Since ukulele's have mostly flat sound boards, you may be able to get away with laminates. But in the case of mandolins, which are similar to the viola family, with curved sound boards, laminates don't work as well. Straighten me out if needed.

[the padma]

Note: this is a triple laminated post...see the middle one (below) for the meat of the matter.

[the padma]

In boatbuilding you deal with this a lot, so I know a little something.

The bad thing is that laminates are relatively less bendable. If you're going to do curvy bends (think F-style mandos or guitars) you kind of have to take very thin strips, bend them, and then build up the layers of laminate in the curvy form, layer upon layer.


.

Well I, me, duh ?adma don't be knowen nuffen about boat building. Me do know that they do sink , and so me stay away from them.

Now regarding this thing about laminates and needing thin strips and all that...sorry this just be another pile of B.S.* to go on top of the B.S.* generally associated with laminating plates. You just need the right heat, pressure and technique and the wood well she will bend any which a way you wanna or need her to be bending ~ well with in reason and laminated tops are one of the reasons that are well within the boundaries of can do.

Now don't non of you go be getting me wrong here, you hear! Me don't like laminated plates ~ to duh Padma, they take the fun out of looferin around. Ya me has used them and ya me admits that they are about as quick and dirt as the wimen folk down at the "Dew Drop Inn" ...not only that, they can and often do sound real gooder to boot.

So ya , me use laminates for prototypes but prefer real woods otherwise.


Blessings
duh ?adma


*B.S. ~ your belief systems