Tuning machines... again!

[sunburst]

Soooo...
I was ordering tuning machines for a couple of mandolins, thought I would use the Stewmac elite/golden age/whatever they're call these days, but one customer wanted gold plating and pearl buttons for F5. No go, they don't make them that way, so I ordered Gotoh deluxe, my old standby that I haven't used lately because that last couple of sets I got didn't work very well. Anyway, I've buffed the mandolin, finished the frets, and was starting to set it up. First step; install the tuners. I installed my usual thin metal "vintage style" bushings, dropped the tuners in place and was about to mark the screw hole positions with a punch when I realized the tuners weren't seated all the way against the back of the head stock. I pulled one of the tuners out to see what the obstruction was, and it turned out to be one plastic washer, two thin spring washers and a metal flat washer all stacked up between the tuner plate and the shoulder on each tuner post, and all too big to fit in the holes in the head stock!! What the heck is all that doing there?? Well, actually I know; it's to tighten up the slack so the tuners feel tighter to people when there is no string tension on them. Perhaps the maker was getting reports of people not liking the loose feel that the tuners used to have, the same feature that made them rather more tolerant of hole misalignment than some other tuners.
But anyway, at this point I have a mandolin on the bench, buffed out and ready to set up, and a set of tuners that won't go in the holes in the head stock because of someone's bright idea of a method to make them feel tighter. Yes, I know there are tools to counter bore/counter ream the hole, no I don't have one. Yes, I know I could have drilled the back of the peghead with a larger bit and still could at the peril of the finish, but I don't want to do that! I just want the tuners to fit the holes like all of them always have before this!

OK, I guess I'm done. There is just no end to the frustration associated with mandolin tuners, and where else might I find sympathetic ears (eyes?) for blowing off a little steam than here?

[Dave Cohen]

Me! I think today's mandolin tuning machines are esssentially 1920s technology. Even the Waverlys, though at least they are made with a bit more precision. The Grover plates are kinda big and klunky, as are the buttons. Schaller hasn't bothered to change theirs, except maybe to drop the quality control. All of 'em are way heavier than they need to be, even for good durability. The Golden Age are offshore made to be a good value, but they are likewise nearly a century old w/ respect to technology & design. And, you already covered the Gotohs. So, you can add a grumble from me to the thread.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[billhay4]

I've been wondering why we haven't seen titanium tuners out there. They'd be a lot lighter. Of course, they'd be a lot more expensive, but Waverly's are $500, so one of the others could still beat that.
As for the technology, I agree but am at a loss to suggest changes, not being of the technical bent.
Bill

[Jim Hilburn]

Grover 309's have quite a few advancements over 20's tuners. I don't think they ever used any nylon bushings back then. But your right, the plates are too big.

[Folkmusician.com]

John,

Is this the same as what you have?

[sunburst]

Yep, those are the same (other than the pearl buttons).

[amowry]

Yes, I'm frustrated by those too. I've been counterboring the back (the Waverly bushing counterbore works well if you start with 1/4" holes and then enlarge both sides independently), but I liked the Gotohs better the old way. I loved how easily they turned, and as John points out, any extra play disappeared when there was string tension on them. And, why won't Stew-Mac make those new tuners in gold? At least 75% of my customers request gold plating...

[Dave Cohen]

Iirc, titanium is kinda expensive. Also, titanium has a density of 4.5 g/cm3, whereas aluminum has a density of 2.7 g/cm3. I know that Alessi makes some sets w/ aluminum posts, but when I e-mailed him he didn't really seem to understand enough English to get the idea that I wanted to know if he could make some sets with aluminum plates as well. Aluminum is plenty tough enough for a base plate, though the gears would have to be made from something tougher. Also, there are some heat treated versions of aluminum (e.g., 6061) and some alloys as well. A much lighter set of mandolin tuners is certainly something that could be done.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[grandcanyonminstrel]

Tuning machines are constant headache for me. 'Gotta have some patience to work with a little old Italian man on the other side of the world on his home turf.

I communicate with Nicolo Alessi on the telephone, in English and sometimes with my shameful broken Italian, by email, I make very detailed technical drawings in English standard and metric, I use Google translator, when it is an important design I sometimes hire a translator from the university at a rate of $45 per page, I patiently wait 6-8 months per order, I often order more than I need just to be safe.....and yet Nicolo's tuning machines never stop impressing me with their precision and beauty. They are the only mandolin machine I've used for the past three years. I also get to use and handle approx. fifty different sets on guitars each year over at Dream Guitars. I think they are worth every bit of the hassle.

I've used some of his ultra light sets with the aluminum posts and basses; for what I'm after, I prefer the bronze baseplates and posts, not the aluminum. I'd gladly pay a hefty premium to get them made out of titanium, but that is not a current option with Alessi.

j.
www.condino.com

[austin]

Hear, hear!
The irony is, none of the companies seem to be listening. (except perhaps Nicolo)

I hate to say it, but the Waverly machines are the ONLY ones that don't have inconsistency in machining, occasional stiff knobs, no crummy mother of toilet seat and no dealing with Italian craftsman. They do have options on knob materials, the machining is beautiful and the plates don't look like a chromed out hot rod.
But then there is the price, which is prohibitive for many customers.... $$$

I have not had much luck with the 309s either. Every set seems to have one or two posts with play in them. Again, it is fine under string tension, but the inconsistency in manufacturing (and the ugly plastic knobs) get me irritable.

Give me back my old Gotohs with some knob options and I'll be thrilled!

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=sunburst;1050848]Yes, I know I could have drilled the back of the peghead with a larger bit and still could at the peril of the finish, but I don't want to do that! I just want the tuners to fit the holes like all of them always have before this!

Maybe a gentle 'Cowboy' session w/ a Dremel ? I'm kind of in the 'If it works' camp as to design. If somebody can make em' better (at a reasonable price) then do it !

[Jim Hilburn]

The 309's I've been getting seem consistently uniform in tension. I've never experienced a loose set. Plates are ugly but hey, you don't look at your tuners when your playing.

[fatt-dad]

I'm very happy withe Golden Age tuners (with the odd string post spacing) on my new Cohen. For new construction they may be an alternative for you all.

Not to butt in that is. . .

f-d

[sunburst]

An update;
I got the tuners on the headstock with no more finish damage than the usual damage from drilling holes for the screws, and all was going well. I set up the action and "tuned" the bridge (I do all that with only 4 strings), then added the rest of the strings and as soon as I started to tune the mandolin one of the pearl tuner buttons split in half. That's not uncommon with pearl buttons, so I thought "no big deal", I'll just steal one off of my mandolin, and I can replace it later.
So, I took a pearl button off of my mandolin (same tuners, Gotoh deluxe) but for some reason it wouldn't go on the shaft of the new tuner. When I checked things out to see why, I found that they changed the shafts from square to 2 flats! (More unpaid time filing the hole in the pearl button with a round jewelers file to get it to fit.)
Perhaps I'm starting to feel paranoid, but it seems that every interaction with mandolin tuners has some element of frustration involved. I can envision the makers of tuners getting together with wicked grins on their faces and saying "what else can we do to 'mess with' mandolin makers??".

[Paul Hostetter]

This change occurred several years ago, I posted a page about it here back then. I'm still bummed, Gotoh went and "fixed" something that wasn't broke in the first place.





Fortunately Stew-Mac has stepped in with better machines all around, so I've kind of given up on Gotohs.

You do have the option of filing the new Gotoh post square, rather than having to open up the inside of the button. Were these true pearl, or their stock pearloid? I much prefer Stew-Macs ivoroid buttons to Gotoh's new ones, but they really don't match.

[sunburst]

Real pearl (from Roger Siminoff). Yes, I've filed shafts square before, filed square ones to smaller squares to change buttons from one brand to another, all kinds of stuff... but I only had to change one button, and I figured keeping things consistent was better. Heck, I might be the repairman if these tuners need more work in the future and I sure don't want to find one square shaft!

As for the Stewmac tuners, as I said in the first post of this thread, those were my intended tuners for this mandolin, but they aren't available for "F" in gold plating with pearl buttons.
...and as for Gotoh "fixing" something that wasn't broke, yes, that was what got me to start this thread in the first place.
Anyway, the customer is happy with the mandolin, it's out of here... onward...

[Cheryl Watson]

What about the Loar-style tuners on the Siminoff site for $249? They have nice buttons but they are worm under, I think. Sure are less than Waverlys. Anyone have experience with them good or bad?

[craigw]

The Siminoff Loar style tuners are essentially Gotohs retrofitted with period correct screws and mop buttons. I used a set a couple years back and they worked fine but have been doing my own retrofitting since then.

[Paul Hostetter]

Yep.

[earnest]

We should get Campagnola to make tuners...
Two tools I could not live without...my hand held countersink with a red plastic handle, and one of those step drills from the hardware store. The go up in 1/32nd increments to 1/2", never had any finish blowout, great for drilling endpin jacks and counter boring tuner holes.

[Bernie Daniel]

We should get Campagnola to make tuners...
Two tools I could not live without...my hand held countersink with a red plastic handle, and one of those step drills from the hardware store. The go up in 1/32nd increments to 1/2", never had any finish blowout, great for drilling endpin jacks and counter boring tuner holes.

Where did you buy the hand-held one? -- is it a continuous taper or a stepped like the drill bit? I used to have a hand-held reamer, but lost it (or seriously misplaced it) and have not seen a replacement at the usual stores. A hand held reamer with step function bit would be nice too.

[amowry]

So, back to the Stew-mac tuners, does anyone know why they won't make them in gold? I've mentioned it to them a few times, with with unenthusiastic responses. It seems there must be a market for them.

[mandopixie]

What about the Loar-style tuners on the Siminoff site for $249? They have nice buttons but they are worm under, I think. Sure are less than Waverlys. Anyone have experience with them good or bad?

That's one heck of a markup over their standard set at the same site for just a buttons and flat head screws change. Am I missing something?

As for the gripe in this thread, the subject of shoddy, overpriced tuners has long been a pet peeve of mine dating back to when I began playing mandolin. Most of my whine has been poured out here already. Suffice it to say that I'm in the disgruntled, frustrated camp.

When there are so many things available that are made to decent specs for a reasonable price these days, why does this one (four-on-a-plate-tuners) continue to elude us?
It is not alone in this lack.
Toasters and drip coffee brewers is another rant, but the question remains the same:
What is so difficult? You've had how long is it now to perfect the completion of the most simple task required of the device? You have paid R&D people..see? Now I've got myself all riled up again..drat.

[Paul Hostetter]

So, back to the Stew-mac tuners, does anyone know why they won't make them in gold? I've mentioned it to them a few times, with with unenthusiastic responses. It seems there must be a market for them.

I have to say that Stew-Mac has a remarkable track record of floating things on the market, only to see how they do. And you very often see them being sold off in due time at a discount in their closeouts because they didn't do so well. Witness the current selloff of A tuners in bright nickel with ivoroid buttons. It costs a lot to keep things in inventory that ony a few people ever buy.

It's not that hard to have nickel-plated things replated in gold.

[mandopixie]

Witness the current selloff of A tuners in bright nickel with ivoroid buttons. It costs a lot to keep things in inventory that ony a few people ever buy.

Yeah - cuz at one time everyone wanted bright nickel tuners on their mandolin. Who knew?