Tremolo

[jstout]

Elbow or wrist ? or both ? I find plenty exercises on Tremolo but nothing yet on the technique ?

PS Excuse my spelling it's almost as bad as my playing.

Thanks

[neil argonaut]

I think most folk use a bit of both but mainly wrist; I aim to use only wrist, finding that it always ends up coming from the elbow a bit anyway, but this gives a good balance between them.

[Willie]

I tried locking my wrist and doing some tremolo and it is near impossible to do it with any speed, so I guess you could say it is about 90% wrist and 10% elbow as the elbow does move some when I do it, Others may play differently then I do but that is my observation...I learned from Buzz Busby and he always used his elbow to hold the mandolin up near his right armpit so he didn`t use any elbow to speak of....some people have a more flexible wrists then others so maybe some people have to use more of their elbow do it differently, most tremelo songs are slow anyway....

Willie

[Marc Katz]

wrist all the way. I think the main thing is that tremolo isn't different than playing fast. it has to have the same preciseness in timing. it's not any different (for me anyway) than playing quickly with the right hand. and it's all wrist.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Wrist only...

[JeffD]

I am with Willy on this. 90 to 95% wrist, and 5 to 10% elboe. The main thing is to keep it all stress free. If you get all stressed up keeping your elboe from flexing it will goof things up. Keep it loose and don't freak if it moves.

I guess thats what I do, focus on the wrist movement, don't freak if the elboe moves, and keep it relaxed.

[JeffD]

I think the main thing is that tremolo isn't different than playing fast. it has to have the same preciseness in timing.

This topic is being vigerously discussed in these two threads. You will find advocates of your point of view, and dissenters.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...o-with-tuplets

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...emelo-question

[Santiago]

Wrist only, but don't lock things. Keep things loose.

[Fstpicker]

Plus, it is less fatiguing to do it with a loose wrist than trying to do it with one's elbow primarily.

Jeff

[OldSausage]

Do whatever works, but keep as little muscle tension in your arm, hand and shoulder as possible. Mostly wrist, as others have said, but engage your whole body in it.

[Willie]

Just to add one more thing...I find that sitting down I use only the wrist but when standing I also move the elbow some...

If you ever watched the mandolin player that plays with "Big Country Bluegrass" he uses his whole forearm when doing tremelo, I am not all that crazy about his style but like some one else pointed out, "do whatever suits you"...Just relax and let it fly and take note of which it is and stick with it....

Willie

[bmac]

I suspect in the long run for efficiency one should learn to use the wrist in tremolo. For me it was a little counter-intuitive to learn, because instinctively I wanted to use the elbow as a fulcrum but the wrist is far more efficient. in fact when you see a great professional you can often see very little movement, if any, as the pick moves roughly an eigth of an inch in a high speed tremolo.

[jstout]

Thanks for all the good advice men...........................good luck

[Rob Fowler]

I also think that it depends on how many strings you are tremoloing (spelling?) on, also. If playing tremolo on just one string it should be coming from the wrist primarily but once you get into double-stops or even 3 string tremolo (yeah, don't hear that too often!) moving the rest of the forearm is going to possibly come in to play.

What it really comes down to, at least with me (and others have already mentioned it here), is to have as little tension in your picking arm and wrist and to have a nice loose grip on the pick (playing anything really) to get a nice even, clean, tremolo. I think that's the hardest thing to really get down for me and I'm certainly not there yet.

Also, watch your favorite mandolin players and see how their right hand moves when picking tremolo and try to emulate the one that sounds best to you.

[JeffD]

...but once you get into double-stops or even 3 string tremolo moving the rest of the forearm is going to possibly come in to play.

You are right. I looked down and noticed that is the case for me.

What it really comes down to, at least with me (and others have already mentioned it here), is to have as little tension in your picking arm and wrist and to have a nice loose grip on the pick (playing anything really) to get a nice even, clean, tremolo.

Yep.

[Santiago]

Yes. I find I use a slighty different hand position on the lower courses, and a different tremolo technique for playing chords.

[Charley wild]

I totally agree with the mostly wrist, a little elbow school especially with double stops but I have always held the pick tightly for tremolo. Why, I have no idea. It's just the way I developed. Works for me. Anytime I hold a loose pick for any reason it ends up on the floor!

[Marc Woodward]

Wrist. Elbow maybe where it's a sweep across several strings (eg tremeloing a chord). I had classical lessons when I was younger and was taught that tremelo cones solely from the wrist and in order to facilitate that you should play with an arched wrist.
I think my wrist is too arched...but works for me! Here's a clip with some tremelo playing which demonstrates that. I think the low camera angle accentuates the arched appearance in fact!



Cheers all,
Marc

[ald]

Marc, I think commented on your arched wrist for tremelos a while back. Did you say you posted your pinkie? It doesn't look like it. I have tried to emulate your "arch" but it feels a bit uncomfortable (I weaned myself off posting and millions of other bad habits over a five-year period), so how were you taught to do that (comfortably) if you don't mind be asking! I try to get my tremelo (particularly on two sets of strings) something akin to the relaxed state I have when strumming. I'm getting there bit by bit. I must say your double string tremelos are very effective.

[peterleyenaar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxvD41asKCY

[Beanzy]

As I was on her site for Choro info I thought I may as well chuck these on the burner too.

http://www.mandolinmagazine.com/work...ir/fall99.html

& something to work with once you're underway
http://www.mandolinmagazine.com/work.../winter03.html

http://www.marilynnmair.com/ask-mari...hand-position/

http://www.marilynnmair.com/articles...iting-tremolo/

[August Watters]

Marc, your video (tremolo with arched wrist) illustrates one kind of tremolo I use, and that I learned long ago from experienced players. I think it's a way of doing things that's common among classical players here in the states, and also indispensable to gypsy jazz.

But it also illustrates the imprecision of words: the question was posed, "elbow or wrist"?, and the discussion has continued with that dualism in mind. Your video illustrates a third mechanism: the rotation of the forearm, which is an effective and time-tested part of our mandolinistic traditions. Yet, often "wrist" is used to describe some combination of motion by the wrist and forearm.

The rotation of the forearm has been much-criticized recently, especially by a younger generation of bluegrass players -- still it remains worthy of consideration. Here's a video of Dave Apollon using this technique (especially toward the end), along with others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy1zRPTGBVc

[Marc Woodward]

Hi August,
Interesting... I've been looking at the way I play and can see that although I always thought of it as a wrist movement, I am indeed rotating the wrist rather than using a side to side/up and down action. Whether I started out with more wrist action or not many years ago I don't know. (I seem to recall a lot of wrist action when I was in my teens )

Certainly the movement is driven from the wrist and rotates the forearm as a consequence it seems. And the arched wrist seems to make this happen.

My mandolin teacher was a classical and 'light' music player, a fine sessions player - a member of Troise and his Mandoliers (along with Hugo D'alton) who were popular on the BBC back in the forties and fifties. Troise was a student of Mario De Pietro, so I like to think I've got a tenuous link back to this style of playing! Not sure how you'd describe Mario's tremolo action - wrist I think?

I'll see your Apollon and raise it with a Pietro!!
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/ma...l-in-good-time
Cheers,
Marc

[August Watters]

Great clip, thanks! I find it's challenge enough to diagnose what's going on when it's live. Really, there should be a law that any great mandolin players planning to make films for posterity are required to remove their jacket, and provide a clear view of the arm all the way up to the elbow. But perhaps in 1943 they had more pressing concerns?

I suspect this is a very complicated issue, with many different possible combinations of mechanisms. Are there any doctors or medical people out there, who can explain the possibilities for producing the range of motion needed for tremolo?

[August Watters]

Wow, just found the other de Pietro videos. Fantastic! I think I detect some arched-wrist action around 1:00 --
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/mario-de-pietro-3