Dating the Lyon & Healy

**Paul Weber** · Jan-08-2005, 3:59pm

I have #2336 Style A Prof, assymetrical, 24 fret, short scale, missing pickguard.

Paul

**Nat** · Jan-08-2005, 10:04pm

I do hope that at some point the nice folks running the mandolin archive site will decide they've got the time to start adding l&h mandos to their database... I've read their faq about it, and it's something I would look forward to with great pleasure.

**keef** · Jan-09-2005, 6:41am

Originally Posted by (NorthStar @ Jan. 08 2005, 16:59)

I have #2336 Style A Prof, assymetrical, 24 fret, short scale, missing pickguard.

#Paul

Paul - I saw that on Ebay - had a nice purple lined case too. Does the label say 'Professional' ?

**twaaang** · Jan-12-2005, 11:23am

My apologies for neglecting my own thread for so long. Year-end business pressure, New Year's decompression, etc.

Eugene, thanks for your very prompt response. My scale is about 14", which per your info leaves open the possibility of 'teens dating. I can see that the bridge has been moved back a bit, which apparently is typical, but I don't think anyone would argue that the old footprint was from a 13" scale.

Nat, assuming the serial numbers were assigned regardless of the model, I guess I'm 198 instruments farther along and that much less likely to be from 1918. Did Elderly actually see your Style A, or just judge from photos? -- I ask because my Style B came with an earlier third-party expert opinion of "circa 1917" based on photos in which the patent stamp could not be seen.

Bob, thanks for the copy of the design patent, that goes right into my archives. I wonder what is patentable about this particular design? That little spacer out on the nubbin, for the screw to fit through, gives me just enough clearance to fit a loop of black bootlace through for my strap.

Jim, yes it was you I corresponded with separately, but I didn't feel entitled to blab your SN. Thanks for raising the question about stairstep versus deco headstocks -- until I saw the resulting pictures plus Hubert's comments I'd have called mine a deco based on what I thought I knew about art.

Hubert . . . so far mine is the lowest SN you know of for a Style B? Woo-hoo! Suddenly separate serial numbering for the different models (if you're rooting for an earlier date) has its appeal! I got this one from Peter Mix, it's the one that was advertised last April in these Classifieds. Background is that Peter apparently got it in 2003, and its previous life was spent as property of a church in the Midwest; it's also every bit as good a mandolin as he claimed. Can you tell me what the Teagle book is?

Thanks to all, I appreciate your help. -- Paul

**keef** · Jan-13-2005, 3:05am

Paul - the lowest Style B I have listed is #2 - yours is the lowest I have with the 11.12.1918 pickguard stamp.

The subject of a design patent is the form, shape and/or cosmetics of an object - you can distinguish these from technical patents by the 'D' prefix before the patent number. I agree with you that the shape of the pickguard does not look special enough to validate a patent.....

John Teagle did a book on old and new Washburns in the mid 1990s. It is out of print but you can find it on Ebay.

**twaaang** · Jan-13-2005, 6:55am

Hubert: Yes, I did understand that my SN was lowest for Style B in the context of the pickguard stamp, but I see my earlier reply looks a little more carried away. Thanks again for preventing any misunderstanding. -- Paul

**Mace** · Jan-13-2005, 12:33pm

Curious as to my B#5, was a Spec a variation on the B model?

**Jim Garber** · Jan-13-2005, 1:11pm

Originally Posted by (keef @ Jan. 13 2005, 04:05)

John Teagle did a book on old and new Washburns in the mid 1990s. It is out of print but you can find it on Ebay.

A somewhat disappointing book... I didn't buy it when it first came out but then ought on eBay a year or so ago. Half of the book is devoted to loving photos of current Washburn instruments. I wondered whether the book was partly sponsored by Washburn.

Also, there are old catalog pages pictured but they are miniscule are gard tpo read. On the other hand it is all we have at the moment on this huge company that at one time I believe even dwarfed Gibson in production totals.

Jim

**Eugene** · Jan-13-2005, 2:12pm

I never bought Teagle's Washburn book. Unlike most Gibson, Martin, Larson brothers, etc. books, it was crafted in service to the Washburn brand name rather than to provide the history of a manufacturing entity. You won't find info on Levin or Ditson in any Martin-specific text outside the instruments specifically manufactured for those brands under Martin's ownership or in Martin's shop. Of course, the resurrected Washburn brand has absolutely nothing to do with the original manufacturing entity, Lyon & Healy, other than owning the rights to the Washburn name that Lyon & Healy once owned. The really useful info would be that which remains almost entirely neglected in print: all that rich info and records from Chicago's pre-depression Lyon & Healy facility. As it is, the Teagle book strikes me as being as much a modern-Washburn propaganda effort as it is a useful reference.

**Jim Garber** · Jan-13-2005, 2:22pm

The strange thing to me is how some companies divorce themselves from their own history. I tried to contact anyone at L&H recently to see if they had any records or even interest in their non-harp history. No go. The same experience with Hammond when I tried to find info on my 1960s Hammond made accordion amp. Oh well.

Jim

**manjitsu** · Jan-13-2005, 3:20pm

Hi everyone-

I've been following this thread with great interest- it's nice knowing that there are others out there who appreciate the L&Hs as much as I. I'm thrilled to hear that there's someone out there cataloguing these wonderful instruments, too. Hubert, here are a few that I own for your registry in case they haven't already been archived:

Style 5283, serial #14501 (my favorite)
Style C, serial #1313 (most unlucky?)
Style B, serial # 74
Style B, serial # 63

I can take some pictures as well if they'd be of interest.

Best regards,

Chris Rorrer

**Eugene** · Jan-13-2005, 3:24pm

Originally Posted by (jgarber @ Jan. 13 2005, 15:22)

The strange thing to me is how some companies divorce themselves from their own history. I tried to contact anyone at L&H recently to see if they had any records or even interest in their non-harp history. No go. The same experience with Hammond when I tried to find info on my 1960s Hammond made accordion amp. Oh well.

Jim

I've enjoyed the same utter non-response from Lyon & Healy in the past.

**Paul Weber** · Jan-14-2005, 7:34pm

To Keef, sorry for the delayed answer. The label does say Prof after Style A. The purple interior is stiff and matted like someone wet it down and tried to clean it and did a lousy job. I haven't figured out what to do with that problem. also, the case has a Vega tag glued to the interior of the top! The case was made for Vega i would guess. I had Kevin Schwab refret the mando with similar sized frets after i bought it.

Paul

**keef** · Jan-18-2005, 2:31am

Sorry for the late reply - I was out for a few days.

After many failed attempts I recently got an L&H employee on the phone about the archives. She seemed to be pretty well informed about the subject and the repeated queries for information that L&H still is receiving about their prewar fretted instruments. She assumed that the archives had been kept by CBS at the time of the sale of L&H to Salvi (I believe) in the 1980s and had referred a number of queries from individuals to CBS to get them to release (information from) these archives. In response CBS had their lawyers send a cease and desist notice to L&H! She also informed me that among the very few old materials that L&H still has there was a note saying that certain files prior to 1910 had been destroyed by a fire.

I was so thrilled to hear that CBS still had L&H's archives - finding these lost files would be the scoop of the century...but this turned out to be an illusion. After my call with L&H I contacted the last CEO of L&H before the company was sold to Salvi. He currently is an attorney. From his resume I saw that his career had started at CBS - so I was hoping he had an inroad to the L&H archives... He was very accomodating and informed me that during his tenure he had been personally assigned with the task to organize the company files, only to discover that there was practically nothing left about the prewar years. The materials that he found were mostly old catalogs...no ledgers, correspondence, meeting minutes, accounts. Too bad...

Chris - thanks so much for the info..a great collection you have! I am not keeping an actual register of the L&Hi nstruments but have listed serial ## about all pre 1940 LH instruments that I could find (including many Styles A-C) for a book on Washburns that I am doing. This is also the reason why I am not dissing Teagle's book - that would seem inappropriate or considered as spam.

I add that it obviously is very difficult and time consuming to reconstruct the company's and the L&H instrument history without the archives...and the old catalogs contain a lot of wrong information. The Teagle book was commissioned by Washburn. I heard that John wanted to cover the prewar instruments only but was told to include the newer stuff as well.

Mace - can't help you out with the 'Spec'. The only mando I have seen with that designation was definitely not a standard catalog model, possibly one of a kind - so look if there is anything unusual on your mando. B #2 has a bound non extension fingerboard...not sure if that is original though.

**Jim Garber** · Jan-18-2005, 8:24am

Originally Posted by (manjitsu @ Jan. 13 2005, 16:20)

I can take some pictures as well if they'd be of interest.

I can only speak for myself, but i would love to see photos.

Jim

**Mace** · Jan-18-2005, 1:41pm

My B#5 Spec has an extended, unbound 22 fret fingerboard. The back is not bound the way the top is (BWB) in fact might not have binding at all. The is no knee pull out. The grain in the top is not even and appears to 'run out' at an angle near the tailpiece.

**keef** · Jan-26-2005, 6:08am

Mace - 22 or 24-fret? 24 was standard....this or else the lack of back binding could be the reason for the 'spec' designation. The lack of a knee rest is consistent with other early Styles A and B.

**Sheila** · May-31-2010, 5:20pm

Originally Posted by manjitsu

Hi everyone-

I've been following this thread with great interest- it's nice knowing that there are others out there who appreciate the L&Hs as much as I. I'm thrilled to hear that there's someone out there cataloguing these wonderful instruments, too. Hubert, here are a few that I own for your registry in case they haven't already been archived:

Style 5283, serial #14501 (my favorite)
Style C, serial #1313 (most unlucky?)
Style B, serial # 74
Style B, serial # 63

I can take some pictures as well if they'd be of interest.

Best regards,

Chris Rorrer

New member reviving an old thread, sorry, but I think for good reason - Chris, I've got a Style 5283, No. 14502! :-)

Just thought that was kinda fun.

**mrmando** · Jul-30-2012, 12:57pm

Bizarre. Elderly is selling a symmetrical 2-point L&H Style A, SN 480, which they claim has a 13" scale. That can't be right, can it?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/58318

**Jim Garber** · Jul-30-2012, 4:34pm

I seem to recall hearing about a few transition instruments. You could contact them for verification. Maybe they made a mistake?

**mrmando** · Jul-30-2012, 6:45pm

I don't think the SN is in the right range for a transition instrument ... hm. Well, I'll ask them about it.

**Nat** · Jul-30-2012, 7:22pm

Mistake. That looks like a long-scale instrument to me (see position of twelfth-fret markers). Plus, description says "asymmetrical," but picture is of a symmetrical instrument. I suspect there's a photo/text mismatch here.