Ribbon mics

[Mike Romkey]

Got my eye on a ribbon mic. Specifically, the AT4081, which is half as much at the Royer they used on Mike Compton's new CD, if I have my mics straight. Not that the Royer wouldn't be nice. Anybody have an experience with ribbons? They're supposed to be particularly nice on mandolins, fiddles and other string instruments.

[Spruce]

Anybody have an experience with ribbons?

They are indispensable in my studio, mainly for what they don't do....

A figure-8 patterned ribbon (which most of the vintage ones are) will reject on the nulls to the point of astonishment...
I'm still can't believe that they are able to do this so effectively...

You can set one up over a drum kit, adjust it so that it nulls the other stuff in the room (amps, etc.), and it's almost like having a drum iso booth...

A very effective tool (especially for one-room studios), and I'm pretty sure I hear the banjo player hiding in the ribbon nulls on those old seminal bluegrass recordings...

Five ribbons (A Coles 4038 out of view) and a shotgun (also out of view):

[mommythrice]

Why does it look like they are off to the side?

[Spruce]

Why does it look like they are off to the side?

Because they are...
I wanted the vocal mics (RCA BK11s) to reject the other vocal and instruments...

[foldedpath]

Mike, will this be your first recording mic, or are you looking for a different flavor than what you have now?

The reason I'm asking, is that while I think ribbon mics are a very useful flavor to have in your recording arsenal, I don't think they're the best choice for someone starting out with home recording. As a general class of mic, they tend to have excellent transient response and what most people describe as a "smooth and natural" sound on many acoustic instruments, but they don't capture the upper "air" frequencies as well as a condenser mic. In that respect, I think of ribbon mics as being a sub-set of the sounds I can capture with a good condenser mic. They leave some things out, and that can sound great in some cases, not so great in others. As with anything else in recording, it's a question of matching the right mic to the instrument, player, and musical genre. Especially genre.

For example, I would use my Royer R121 for a "folk" fiddle style, but when recording Classical violin I prefer my small diaphragm condenser mics. The violinists I've work with like to hear the slight hiss of bow hair on the strings, and that's much easier to capture in a good condenser mic. But again, it's a player and genre thing. For Country or Bluegrass, you might want to supress those air frequencies a little bit, by using a ribbon mic. Same thing with acoustic guitar or mandolin. In some genres like classical or Irish trad, you might want a bit more sparkle on top. In others, like maybe Bluegrass, you could want to hear less of that. Ribbons are also famously useful for recording horns without capturing too much harshness.

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that if you have some other good mics and want to experiment with a ribbon mic, that's something you should definitely try! On the other hand, I don't think it's a good first microphone, because you won't know what you're missing in the upper air frequencies. I think it's better to begin understanding how a mic works with the wider frequency response of a good condenser mic. Then try a ribbon later on, to see if you want to work with a slightly narrower window on the sound.

Just my $.02 opinion here, I'm sure you'll hear others.

P.S. there is another whole discussion to be had, about matching ribbon mics to the right preamp. That's taken care of for you, with an active design like the AT4081. But considering ribbons in general (most of which are passive), it does complicate their use as a first good mic for someone new to recording. My personal preference is passive ribbons and the right preamp behind them (AEA TRP, or a Great River MP-2NV), but that can be an expensive proposition. Condenser mics give you a wider range of workable preamps.

P.P.S. What Spruce said about the ability of ribbons to reject sound to the sides is absolutely one of the best things about them for studio use. If you like to record people playing "live" together in a room (and I do), ribbons can be a great way to get a more isolated sound without too much bleed, just by how you arrange the players and the mic nulls.

[mandopete]

Because they are...
I wanted the vocal mics (RCA BK11s) to reject the other vocal and instruments...

But wouldn't that reject the vocal as well since they are off axis as well?

[Spruce]

But wouldn't that reject the vocal as well since they are off axis as well?

Nope...
The pic is deceptive...
Both singers are singing "past" the sweet spot, and the BK11s are working quite nicely, rejecting everything but the vocal...
I'll see if I can post a sound sample later today....

[Mike Romkey]

Wow, Spruce! Those RCA mics are awesome! And two of them!!!

Folded path: The ribbon wouldn't be my first mic. I have a pair of KSM32s, a pair of Neumann KM 184s, a pair of dreadful AKG C 1000 s's that are off being modded. Running things through Millennia pres in an API lunch box, with Grace m502 compressors (which I don't use much). The Millennias actually have a 10+db ribbon boost switch, so I could go active or passive.

I'm mainly trying to figure out where to get into the stream on a ribbon. I'm not interested in the extreme low end. I've tried that, and I'm never happy. That's why I'm disinclined to try one of the Cascades.

The ATs have gotten good reviews, the 4080s more than the 4081s, but I'm impressed with both. There are Beyers and some others in that price range, I think, around $700. Then you jump up to the Blues and Shures and Royers at $1,000 and above. I know the Royers are good, but they now have a wide selection of active and passive, so I'm kind of baffled. I could always ask my Sweetwater rep for a suggestion. (g)

I'll mainly used it for mandolin and some fiddle. Interested to try some mid-side placement, so I like the figure 8 aspect of ribbons. It would probably get some live use, too. I use the mics more live that in my little bedroom project studio. But I am mainly interested in a ribbon for recording. I'm interested in seeing how it would smooth the top end.

[Mike Romkey]

BTW, love "Mangler of Bluegrass," Bruce.

[Spruce]

Thanks Mike...

Yeah, ribbons have become very handy around here, but mainly because I like to record musicians playing together in the same room, and ribbons really have a lot to offer as far as mic'ing strategy goes...

If you're recording fiddle, though, I'd say that a good ribbon is essential...
They are magic on anything that produces sounds that you don't necessarily want on tape, like bowing noise and the like....

Fiddle > Coles 4038 > Altec 1567a pre > RCA BA-6A limiter > tape stands out as one of my most pleasing experiences in the studio...

[foldedpath]

Folded path: The ribbon wouldn't be my first mic. I have a pair of KSM32s, a pair of Neumann KM 184s, a pair of dreadful AKG C 1000 s's that are off being modded. Running things through Millennia pres in an API lunch box, with Grace m502 compressors (which I don't use much). The Millennias actually have a 10+db ribbon boost switch, so I could go active or passive.

Okay, you're well set up to be experimenting with ribbon mics.

I'm mainly trying to figure out where to get into the stream on a ribbon. I'm not interested in the extreme low end. I've tried that, and I'm never happy. That's why I'm disinclined to try one of the Cascades.

For what it's worth, when I was at a similar point in deciding to try ribbon mics (and with similar feelings about avoiding the extreme low end), my thinking was that I wanted to start with one of the "classics"... not a vintage mic that would have maintenance issues, but a modern studio classic. And something something that would retain good resale value, if it ended up not being to my taste.

For me, that wound down to a final decision between a Coles 4038 and the Royer R121. Both are very popular studio mics, with the Coles being on the "darker" end of the spectrum; more of a vintage sound, and the Royer being the modern take on that sound. Both the same price, about $1,300 USD street.

I finally decided on the Royer because, after a lot of listening to various recordings with ribbon mics, I felt I wasn't a huge fan of the way they damp the high end. Wasn't sure I'd like them at all, really. With the Royer not being quite as much on that side of the spectrum, I thought it was a safer choice. Another consideration was the offset ribbon in the R121, so you sort of get "two mics in one," with a (very) slightly different frequency response on each side of the figure-8 pattern. Just seemed more versatile.

That's just my personal journey into ribbon land, so take it all with a grain of salt. Especially since I'm not someone who likes hearing them on everything. For me, it's a special-purpose tool. For others, it's an automatic go-to mic on anything acoustic. Tastes differ.

I know the Royers are good, but they now have a wide selection of active and passive, so I'm kind of baffled.

If you decide on a Royer, I'd suggest going passive to save money since you have a good preamp. And I'd suggest starting with the R121 because it's versatile, and very easy to sell used if you don't like it. On the other hand...

I'll mainly used it for mandolin and some fiddle. Interested to try some mid-side placement, so I like the figure 8 aspect of ribbons.

... this is where the R121 isn't ideal, due to that offset ribbon and a slightly different response on each side. If you'll be using M/S a lot, this could matter. If you'll only use it once in a while, I've tried it as a side mic and didn't hear anything objectionable in the stereo field. It's not that different on each side, and the sound is more diffuse in the side matrix. If you're recording in a bedroom, you may find that M/S isn't an ideal stereo technique anyway.

It would probably get some live use, too.

That's going to be a problem, due to the back side sensitivity of a figure-8 pattern. Also, while these mics aren't as delicate as some people seem to think, I wouldn't personally take a ribbon mic designed for studio use out on a stage. If you really want a ribbon mic for live use, I'd suggest the Beyerdynamic M160 which has a hypercardioid pattern, and is probably robust enough for stage use.

[almeriastrings]

There are two other ribbon models well worth looking at (or preferably hearing), if you can find them. The first is the now-discontinued SE Electronics R1 passive long ribbon. These are 'classic' sounding ribbon... very detailed, but kind of 'dark', 'smooth' sounding. Moderately low output, so you need a quiet preamp with sufficient gain. Obviously your Millennias would be fine. They do have excellent off-axis rejection. I got a pair of these in a closeout sale last year. They originally had a list of $999 each... I grabbed a brand new pair for $350, which was a really great deal. They do not suit absolutely everything, but they are a very handy addition to the mic collection. There are some pretty accurate reviews of these on gearslutz:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/revie...ronics-r1.html

Another one I had the chance to try (but did not buy) was the SE RNR1. This is an active ribbon, with design input by Rupert Neve. That probably gives a clue why I did not buy it! Not that I don't like Neve stuff - but it has a typically Neve price tag... $1,995... street... each....

It is a gorgeous mic. The HF response is pretty unique in a ribbon. It is most definitely worth trying one if you get the chance. I thought it was excellent, but I already have the kind of 'sonic territory' it offers covered by by other things, and $2K is rather steep...I can wait for a closeout!

[foldedpath]

I thought I'd toss in a practical demonstration where the rubber hits the proverbial road, since I talk a lot about gear here but don't show much for it. Here's the web site of my current project duo "String 14."

http://ptjams.com/string14/index.html

The sample tracks here were recorded a couple of months apart, but with the same mandolin, same roon, string type, pick, etc. The mic preamp and recording system was the same: an AEA TRP into a Tascam DR-680 hardware recorder, then mixed in Samplitude Pro.

Only the mics were different -- either a Single Royer R121 ribbon mic, or a spaced pair of Mojave Audio MA-100 tube small diaphragm condenser mics.

The guitar was recorded live in the same room with a spaced stereo pair of two KM-184 small condensers through a Great River MP-2NV.

Can you hear the difference in the mandolin tone between small diaphragm condenser and a ribbon mic? Here's a start:

The first track "Scarborough Fair" was with the MA-100 small diaphragm tube condensers.

The second track "Far Away" was with the Royer R121.

What about the other tracks? It's roughly a 50/50 mix of condenser mics vs. ribbon mic on the mandolin. There are some differences in mix and reverb that might mask the difference, but it shouldn't be too hard to hear that difference between the airier tone of the condensers and the somewhat darker tone of the ribbon mic.

On the other hand, I think this might help demonstrate that the difference between a good ribbon and a good condenser mic isn't all that extreme. Or maybe just that I like a certain sound, and others would have EQ'd the sound much darker on the R121? I dunno. That's always possible. Going darker than this wouldn't be my personal idea of a good mandolin tone, but YMMV. There is also a lot of leeway in how to represent mandolin tone in a showcase track like this, compared to how you want it to sound in a denser mix with other instruments.

P.S. The fact that these are tube condensers shouldn't matter much in the comparison, because the tone on the MA-100 tracks definitely says "small diaphragm condenser." It wouldn't have sounded drastically different if I had used KM-184's on the mandolin. When you get to this level of microphone, it's really the subtle differences that you're paying for.

[Ben Milne]

Folded path: The ribbon wouldn't be my first mic. I have a pair of KSM32s, a pair of Neumann KM 184s, a pair of dreadful AKG C 1000 s's that are off being modded. Running things through Millennia pres in an API lunch box, with Grace m502 compressors (which I don't use much). The Millennias actually have a 10+db ribbon boost switch, so I could go active or passive.

Definitely time for a rIbbon.

Be sure to check out some AEA big ribbons, Warren at Zen Pro Audio provides amazing customer service and has pretty hard to beat prices. He'll be able to provide you some insight into the 4081 vs some others like an AEA R84 etc.
Don't stress too much about active or passive. there are products like the cloud lifter and triton fethead that will give you an active circuit with around 20db of clean gain. The advantage of these is you can shift it from mic to mic since it's it's not built into one mic's chassis.

[almeriastrings]

On the other hand, I think this might help demonstrate that the difference between a good ribbon and a good condenser mic isn't all that extreme.

I think that is very true, especially if you run them into a darker preamp or tweak the channel EQ a bit. Also worth noting that if you have a couple of multi-pattern LDC's you can achieve a similar level of null rejection with those when set to figure-of-8. I frequently use that method when recording singers who like to play guitar simultaneously. You can really isolate each track pretty well.

Still, a ribbon or two is nice to have.

[neil argonaut]

If it's your first experience of ribbon mics, just beware you never plug it into a channel with phantom power (48v) or turn on phantom power on a channel it's going into; while with dynamic mics this will not cause a problem, with a ribbon mic it can apparently destroy the mic instantly.

[Spruce]

If it's your first experience of ribbon mics, just beware you never plug it into a channel with phantom power (48v) or turn on phantom power on a channel it's going into; while with dynamic mics this will not cause a problem, with a ribbon mic it can apparently destroy the mic instantly.

One of the great microphone myths...

This video is a great demo of what can happen if you have mis-wired cables or a patchbay....

If all your cables are cool and your old vintage RCA is wired correctly (not always the case!), you can mix phantom power and ribbons to your heart's content....

[neil argonaut]

Right, that's interesting to hear; if it is a myth it's certainly one that's very persistent as i've been warned by numerous different people / sources about it. Maybe it's just down to a lot of people having dodgy cables and badly wired mics.

[almeriastrings]

This is what Royer says:

http://www.royerlabs.com/phantompower.html

Given you could be dealing with $1K+ down the drain if any one of the several "issues" highlighted occurs, my own preference is to keep it turned off (unless it is very specifically designed for phantom power). Depends how lucky you are feeling, I guess.

[Mike Romkey]

Thanks for all the great input!

Great String 14 music, Mike. Nice to hear the mic comparison. I enjoyed looking through your studio website.

The Mojave Audio MA-100, or their non-tube cousins, are on my lust list. They sound great, as does the Royer. There's really any end to MAS, whether the M is for mandolins or microphones.

[Spruce]

Given you could be dealing with $1K+ down the drain if any one of the several "issues" highlighted occurs, my own preference is to keep it turned off (unless it is very specifically designed for phantom power). Depends how lucky you are feeling, I guess.

Well, a lot of folks I know gig with ribbons...
Those Beyers can be nice for stage work....

So-ooo, bring your own cable and you don't have to worry about "luck"...

[Pete Martin]

Ribbons sound great an MANY things. Also they take EQ very well, positive and negative.

I'm playing into an RCA44bx and the banjo is into a Royer SF12. Both through an AEA TRP preamp designed for ribbon mics. Added a little positive EQ in the upper end.

[Mike Bunting]

Ribbons sound great an MANY things. Also they take EQ very well, positive and negative.

I'm playing into an RCA44bx and the banjo is into a Royer SF12. Both through an AEA TRP preamp designed for ribbon mics. Added a little positive EQ in the upper end.

That sounds really nice, warm, with depth and clarity. Where did you have the gain set on the AEA and on the board?

[Pete Martin]

I have to say I dont remember settings, I adjust for the sound I want. The signal chain was mic > TRP > RME Firefae UFX > Reaper (DAW) @ 32 bit 44100. I just set the TRP to give me about -18 to -12 range in reaper, leaving me plentyof headroom.

Heres a more complete mix, though I still need one more lead instrument.

Banjo Royer SF12
Mandolin Royer SF12
D18 Royer R122V
Bass - AEA R84

I have since sold the 122V and the R84 to aquire the RCA44bx, which I like better for mandolin and bass. Harley Bray always sounds fab on the Royer SF12.

[Ben Milne]

This is what Royer says:

http://www.royerlabs.com/phantompower.html

Given you could be dealing with $1K+ down the drain if any one of the several "issues" highlighted occurs, my own preference is to keep it turned off (unless it is very specifically designed for phantom power). Depends how lucky you are feeling, I guess.

Well, a lot of folks I know gig with ribbons...
Those Beyers can be nice for stage work....

So-ooo, bring your own cable and you don't have to worry about "luck"...

Another reason to use a fethead or cloud lifter. They require phantom, yet don't pass it on to your ribbon. (there is a version of fethead that does pass it if you need).
Awesome investment for those folks using ribbons.