How many coats of laquer?!

[MPJ]

How does one know when to stop? I have 9 coats of sealer and 14 of laquer on. It has an orange peel texture which I plan on polishing. I am using the StewMac guitar finishing kit. The instructions say the next step is wet sanding which kind of scares the crap out of me, then polishing, then buffing. Will the different rubbing compounds that they send do the same as wet sanding or do I really not have a choice but sanding?

[sunburst]

Basically, you know you're done when everything is level; when you can sand the whole thing and no little shiny low spots are left un-sanded. Another few coats after that, let it cure, level sand and buff. If you sand or buff through, more coats and more curing, eventually we abandon the process, or finish it, whichever comes first. How many coats? As many as it takes. That can vary widely depending on the finish material, how it's applied, if and how much it is thinned or reduced, and the big thing; the skill of the finisher and his/her desired results.

[MPJ]

Thanks John-I am using aerosol laquer and so far have managed without drips, sags or runs. I will try wet sanding and see what happens. Stay tuned!

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

I finished my first two guitars with aerosol cans of lacquer, and it seems like it takes forever to build a finish, because the cans just don't flow a lot of material. You can do it, but it will take a while. Just be patient. Like John said, you will have to sand to get rid of the orange peel. The compounds won't level that. Maybe the best lacquer finishes I've seen in a long time are by a friend of mine, Ronnie Bales, a great banjo builder here in east TN. He gets his lacquer coats built and sanded level, then sprays one final coat that is thinned 50/50 with lacquer thinner. You could shave in the reflection! But, he still sands that last coat and buffs it out. Remember, you'll need to let you lacquer set for a couple of weeks after the last coat before leveling. Otherwise, you'll have shrinkage back into the pores of the wood. Also, don't get too carried away with a lot of sealer coats. Sealer is primarily an intermediate step to help the lacquer adhere to things, mostly to PVC bindings. A couple of coats of sealer, then start building lacquer. Also, I tend to sand out to at least 1500 grit before buffing... usually to 2000 grit. It saves a lot of time on the buffing wheel.
Lynn

[jackc]

The thing about lacquer is that the number of coats you need can vary with how much you thin the lacquer, whether you've used retarder, and your spray technique. Experienced finishers (I'm only halfway there) change the composition of what they spray based on humidity and temperature and even what spray gun they are using. You can also vary the air pressure setting and flow, spray pattern, etc. Of course, the aerosol cans don't give you much flexibility, but it sounds like you've been very careful.

This may sound complex, and for the best finishers it is, except that they learned through experience what works. But lacquer is pretty forgiving except in the health aspects of it. You can sand and recoat as much as you need to. The best results come from investing in a compressor, guns, and airbrush, and most of all a good buffer. But you can use the Stew-Mac foam pads in a drill press or even a hand drill to buff. Just be careful not to overdo the buffing because you can burn the lacquer and even move it around if you use too much pressure and linger in one spot too long.

When you wet-sand, get a bowl of water, add a drop or two of dish soap, start with 800 grit paper, and use a felt or rubber sanding block--not a big one, maybe 3" by 2". Cut the paper to a size that wraps around the block, and it helps to put it the paper right in the bowl of water to be sure it well wetted. Go easy on the edges, and check to make sure that your paper isn't loading up with globs of finish. These will scratch your lacquer and undo your work, You can use an old toothbrush to remove small bits of loading. When things are level, move to higher grit papers, as Lynn says. Micro-mesh is good stuff, International Violin sells individual foam-backed pads that work well for rubbing out lacquer (or varnish, or scratched CDs).

To get a professional looking finish, the buffer is the key, but the micro-mesh pads go up to 8000 grit I think, and if you have enough elbow to go that high then you can probably just polish with one of the Meguiars auto finish polishes and be happy.

[Patrick Hanna]

I think Jack C. has given very good advice to you. I am curious about your sealer coats. Did you ever try to sand them level? Or did you just keep spraying coats of sealer and then lacquer? I am not judging you, nor am I speaking down to you. In fact, I am NOT a finishing expert. You state that you have an orange peel finish and multiple coats of sealer and then lacquer. I'm asking because I wonder whether your orange peel began with the sealer coats and is now just magnified by the lacquer coats.

Okay.....

If I were in your shoes, I would hang the instrument up for at least three weeks since your last shooting session. Maybe four. I would then wet sand until the orange peel is absolutely level. Then I would wipe everything with naphtha to get it totally clean of wet sanding slurry. I'd then decide on one of two options: I'd either hang it for a couple of weeks to let the lacquer re-harden before buffing, or I'd consider spraying one more coat of finish lacquer. If I did that last option, I'd let it hang for three-four weeks. ONLY then would I buff it.

I realize this will require extreme patience on your part, but a great finish can't be rushed in any way.

Now, that's just my take on things. I'm sure others will disagree, but slow and steady wins the race every single time.

Patrick

[buckhorn]

a good guitar builder friend once told me that it doesn't matter how many coats you put on , what's more important is how much you leave on between sanding .... i am by no means that experienced , but the final coat is to me , the hardest to conquor and get level.....i have used cans on all but the last few builds and have been happy with most .....

[Jim Taylor]

What Lynn said. I did a banjo with aerosol cans. After sealing and sanding at 5, 8 and 12 coats - I wound up with fish-eye, and went to 15 before final polish. So build up is very minimal with cans. The customer was aggravated at the amount of time it took, but the result was good! Since then, I've bought nitrocellulose lacquer by the gallon. It's a whole different situation.

[Michael Lewis]

Lots of depth to the above advice.

The one enduring theme with lacquer is to make it a thin film or it can chip too easily. To get a thin finish you need to scrutinize your preparation process and make the bare surface as perfect as you can. You may be able to complete your finish process with 5 or 6 coats if the surface has no gaps, pits or scratches to fill. Make even wet coats and sand lightly after the first 3 to remove the highest spots and most of the orange peel if you get any. This will give a bit of safety margin between the surface and the wood, or color if you have a color coat. Then spray 2 more and wet sand. If you get no shiny spots (low spots) then you can spray the final coat, but if you get some shiny spots spray 2 more coats and sand again. Keep doing this until you have no shiny spots. You should be sanding off about half of what you spray on, maybe more, which helps keep the final film fairly thin.

I find using a spray gun much easier than using a spray can. With a gun you can control the viscosity of your lacquer because you mix it as you need it and make adjustments according to the weather and what phase you are doing.

[Tony Francis]

Such amazing and no doubt hard earned advise in this thread!

One thing that really helped me was to think about sanding as not only a smoothing, but also a leveling tool. After all, its a level finish that looks refined, not just a smooth one per say. On the flat surfaces I use hard sanding blocks, like Corian or hardwood. Then, in the initial lacquer level, I use a cork or rubber block. For the final wet sand, your block cant be too hard, or the inevitable clumps of finish will scratch your lacquer. There a softer foam block is great.

[pfox14]

Boy, that's a lot of coats of sealer. I never do more than 3. Lacquer in a can does usually spray thinner coats, so don't be surprised if you wind up with 12-15 coats to get everything nice and level. I wet sand the last coat with 1200-1500-2000-2500 paper, than buff & polish. That should look great.

[belbein]

I have a sort of pre-finish question. I'm just about to slap on the dye. I have wood inlays I want to protect from dye. How do I do that? I thought about tape, but I hate to do that because it's a mess to get off. Is there a clear something or other that will protect them but not interfere with varnish/lacquer?

[sunburst]

Wood inlays where? What kind of wood? Dark inlaid in light, or light inlaid in dark? What kind of dye are you using?

Other that the fact that dyes soak into the wood surface, so dye can get into your inlaid wood from the edges through the surrounding wood, a layer of striping tape (from an auto paint store) and a couple of brushed coats of shellac or lacquer to seal the edges works pretty well. If you are rubbing dyes dissolved in alcohol, shellac is not the right choice; go with lacquer. If your dyes are dissolved in water or are going to be sprayed, shellac will seal the tape and will be compatible with almost any lacquer or varnish you use.

[the padma]

How many coats of lacquer?

Hmmm......

- 9 coats of sealer
- 14 of lacquer
- orange peel texture
- polishing
- wet sanding

It wood scares the crap out of me too ! Not to mention boring duh bejebus out of me.

-then polishing, then buffing. Lord has mercy!


What can me say other than, Yup thats a glass finish if me never heard of one...long hard tedious and as plastic as get go.

Tell me, you never ever hear tell of just a plain old oil finish? Is been around for longer than any mando, just mentioning it ya know.

But me guess some dudes like plastic. Me, well me like to feel real wood in me hands not lac excrement, or other polymers dissolved in volatile organic compounds, such as nitrocellulose, butyl acetate and xylene or toluene.

Ya, duh Padma, him a Mr Natural kinda dude.

But to answer you question directly, when the gallon be empty, that should be enough don't you think.


blessings
duh Padma.