Life of a Luthier

[ZDoerfer]

Hey there. I am a 20 year old student of the mandolin, with a recently born intrigue concerning the art of the luthier. I was talking with my mandolin teacher about it, and he was citing a lack of young luthiers in the area (central NC). I've decided that the only way to begin is to do, and so I am having my teacher put me into contact with a local fiddle maker, as he suggested this as a good place to start. My question for you folks is: what is the life of a luthier like? When it comes to making a living, is it stressful? What qualities and skills are important to focus on? More or less, I would love some input from the luthiers on this site concerning what there daily work is like, what they enjoy about the job, and any advice you may have on how to become a true craftsman and artist through your work. I truly appreciate your responses, as this is my first thread ever.

Zach

[JeffD]

I don't think there is anyone, in any profession, who has ever been successful and didn't describe thier work as stressful. Lots of fun maybe, deeply satisfying no doubt. But stressful. Stressful is the part they pay you for. The rest of it, the part you would do for free, well you are.

[bmac]

I would ask if you enjoy working with wood... and do you actually do it? do you build things? repair things? restore the finish on wooden things? do you have and use woodworking equipment? do you have right now sets of chisels, saws, mallets, hammers, vices and clamps of all sorts? Are you comfortable with all of them? If so then you are probably motivated.... If You haven't already had the curiosity to explore these tools than maybe not.

My instinct is to say that If you have to ask the question then you are probably not ready to commit to the craft. Like any other vocation the romaticism of it wears very thin very rapidly when you realize that your dream vocation pays minimum wage and that your classmates are getting two or three times that figure in corporate business.

That said, if you really want to pursue it then it doesn't matter what anyone thinks.... Just do it.

[Pete Summers]

I've been self-employed as a piano tuner for the past 32 years and I can tell you -- any self-employment is stressful, requires discipline and motivation, and, most importantly, the ability to deal with an unstable and insecure income. It's certainly not for everyone.

On the other hand, working for yourself as a luthier (or any other trade) has enormous advantages such as the freedom to go your own way on your own schedule, satisfaction in doing a job well done and learning a craft, and independence in the job market, free of bosses and time clocks and all the corporate crap most folks have to deal with.

Being self-motivated is critical. No doubt you can learn the craft if you study it, but it may be a long while before you can earn a steady full time income from it. It's best to have another job to back you up until you can become established.

[the padma]

double post.

[the padma]

Is like this...if it feels good , do it.

I you thinkin of doin it for the money, your in the wrong game...try banking. Now if you hearts in it, chances are you'll do just fine...provided you dump the various OS like...work is stress or lifes a bitch...you know, concepts that limit and stifle the soul form truly awakening to its highest potential. You would be amazed at how many loofers are running an old OS based on lack or hardship and the funny thing is they believe that B.S.* Or as Richard Bach said "argue for your limits and sure enough they are yours"

So you go chew on that for a while.


Blessings
duh Padma

*B.S. ~ take your pic, belief systems or bull shift...same difference.

[Mandobart]

I'm not a luthier, so this is just my own rambling .02. Some of the most highly sought after luthiers today came to the profession following other careers. I think starting out now (in your 20's) will give you that much more experience. Most of us have and will continue to change careers over the course of our lives. I'm a hobbyist musician and a hobbyist instrument repair guy (and shadetree mechanic, with lots of plumbing/wiring/carpentry experience to toss in). I fix things. Always have. I was the kid that took apart radios and T.V.s (and learned to put them back together). But aside from being an electronics tech in the USN in my youth, I never made a living doing that (and believe me a sailor's pay in the 80's wasn't much of a living). I do these things now because of the satisfaction and enjoyment they bring me. Not sure if the enjoyment would be the same if it was my day job.

Some good advice my mom gave me over 30 years ago, when I was trying to decide if I ought to sign up with Uncle Sam, was to do something. The time will pass whether you like it or not. Do something meaningful with the time. You don't find yourself, you make yourself. Now maybe someone who can actually answer your question will respond...

[Brett Byers]

You know how to make a million dollars building mandolins?

Start with 2 million!

All kidding aside, if you want to build mandolins then start building mandolins. Every builder's experience is their own, and no two are alike. Some do better financially than others, but I have a feeling if you figured out the "hourly wage" for most independent builders, even those who can charge a hefty price for their goods, you'd find it's nothing to write home about. Nobody ever got into building for the money. Do it because you want to, and don't let anyone discourage you. But you have to have a passion for it, otherwise it will drive you insane.

[sunburst]

As others have mentioned, the usual "stress" in the pro luthier's life is financial stress. If you are good at living on a small income, if you like looking for bargains and doing without fancy stuff as a way of life, you can do OK "luthing" for a living. If you are really industrious, talented, prolific, and lucky, you might even make it to middle class as a luthier; some have.

A love of wood, having your heart in it, artistic talent, an eye for design, etc. etc., all good, but by golly learn to do great fret work(!) and set up work! Learn what makes a good instrument playable. All the pretty finishes, elegant designs, off the beaten path approaches, individualism, and creativity in the world are esoteric if the fingerboard, frets, feel and playability are not first rate. It takes study, work, experience and humility to get good at the nuts-and-bolts part of lutherie, the part that doesn't show up in color pictures, the less-than-glamorous part of lutherie that is the interface between the player and the music he/she creates on your instruments. If you can learn first class fret work and set up work, then innovate all you want to and can get away with in the market place, but beneath it all, a good instrument must be a playable instrument.
What is my daily life like? Not bad. It's a combination of challenges and drudgery, excitement and boredom, of wanting to refine my building but needing to finish up a bunch of repairs to pay the bills, seeing peers get "good jobs" and make much more money while developing no apparent skills, regretting all the years of sanding, breathing too much dust and creating under someone else' name... in short, living with my own choices in life and blaming no one for my circumstances but myself... as I said... not bad.

[ZDoerfer]

Thanks for the posts so far!

My question about the stress was less out of fear of stress, but more the disguised question of "is it actually possible to live off building stringed instruments?" Obviously I'm not considering it for the financial gain, but for the work itself. I cannot imagine anything quite like constructing and restoring objects that can make beautiful music. However, I have no experience, and one reply smartly noted the rapidity with which reality wears away romantic notions. Of course it's entirely possible that I give up and am absolutely frustrated, but trying is the only way to find out, right?

[the padma]

Thanks for the posts so far!

My question about the stress was less out of fear of stress, but more the disguised question of "is it actually possible to live off building stringed instruments?" Obviously I'm not considering it for the financial gain, but for the work itself. I cannot imagine anything quite like constructing and restoring objects that can make beautiful music. However, I have no experience, and one reply smartly noted the rapidity with which reality wears away romantic notions. Of course it's entirely possible that I give up and am absolutely frustrated, but trying is the only way to find out, right?

Ok kid...

Yes, its very possible.
However...
If you "cannot imagine it...." then please, quit wasting our time and go do something that you can imagine.
The point is...ALL things are entirely possible kid.
and finally
Do or don't do, but ~ do not bother "trying"
Trying is a total waist of time and energy.

Bottom line here kid is....you wanna succeed, as a loofier or even as a ditch digger, it really don't matter, then me suggest a core dump of all the limiting concepts and languaging you use. Thats right, flat line your hard drive, go take a course in positive thinking and then decide what you wanna do in this life.

You hearin the words me laying down on you boy?

Hope so.


blessings and good luck
duh Padma


Ps: maybe watch Star Wars and pay attention to Yodas babblings.

.

[Frank Ford]

Here comes a long answer, and one with some parts you might not like so much:

FIRST - get the best education you can afford. While a college degree isn't necessary for a career in lutherie, I can tell you for CERTAIN that the college educational experience will serve to improve the rest of your life and enhance your career potential, regardless of your field of study. If you think that is not true, you are thinking wrong - period. By the way, I did graduate from the University of California with a BS in biology. It was in school that I learned to read, research and write effectively, and in case you haven't noticed, I use that skill EVERY DAY on the Web.

I'll say it one more time - disregard "book learning" at your everlasting peril.

OK, that rant out of the way, consider the various forms a luthier's life may take. You could become a factory worker, a guitar store repair employee, an individual, or self employed guitar maker or fixer. Learn about the future career potentials, and be ready for them.

Learning the craft can be a lifelong pursuit, and it can be all-consuming and rewarding. One violin restorer friend once told me that the irony of his craft is that by the time you actually know it all, you're past retirement age. He wasn't kidding. If you are one of the lucky ones like me, you'll stay excited about the learning process - I'm now just 68, and there's no way I'll quit until I drop.

Now, on to some "stock" advice:

Want a career in instrument making and/or repair? Here are a few ideas.

1. Go to school. There are a number of lutherie training programs available, from short courses to full curriculum institutions. You'll find a short list of them on the Luthier Links Page and a much more comprehensive list at the G.A.L. web site

2. Read everything. Every book or video, no matter how badly produced, is likely to have material worth knowing. When you reflect back on it, you'll probably agree that a single really good idea is worth the price of any book.

3. Just do it. Some of us got our start just tearing into things and getting into trouble. Make lots of mistakes and learn from them. Buy yard sale guitars and rebuild them. Buying and selling, fixing up along the way is an excellent way to learn the vintage market, too. It's all fine to see how things are done, but the real learning comes in doing the jobs.

4. Get a job. The best way to get your techniques down smooth is to do a lot of work. A job in a large busy repair shop is the ideal way to learn about all kinds of operations and instruments. You'll have the opportunity to see more experienced hands at work, and you can ease into the difficult procedures with a bit of a "safety net."

5. Learn to eat beans. One thing for sure about building and repairing instruments is that it's a hard way to make a living. If you're on fire to learn and work on instruments, you may not need the reward of high pay. That's good, because (particularly at first) there is no high pay! The woods are littered with the bones of repairers and builders who had to give up. . .

6. Forget retirement. This is a great career for anyone who is afraid of retirement. As long as you can do the work, you'll probably be in demand. At 70, my friend, Mario Martello, tried to retire. In a very short while he got bored, and wanted to get back to the old workbench. Good thing, too, because there were lots of folks who didn't want to lose his services! Mario is living proof that you can support a family, buy a house, drive a nice car and put a kid through college all on the income from fixing instruments. He built his career working at home doing repair for guitar stores. When it comes to efficiency of work, I'll bet on Mario to win the race!

Had enough? Want more? OK, here goes:

Working on guitars is about the hardest way I know of to make a decent living. But then, it's the ONLY way I know, having done it my entire working life. Overall, I presume repair is more economically comfortable than building, at least in the beginning, because there seems to be no lack of demand for consistent reliable service. I stress "reliable" because there are lots of "talented" repairers out there who can't be counted on to go to work every day. Speaking of which, I hope you're prepared for the self employment life of working 24/7.

In 42 years of running Gryphon Stringed Instruments, I've had only two long vacations (two weeks each). Richard, my partner, has never been gone THAT long all at once. Most years we take only a few days off, outside of strictly business travel. On the other hand, I've never been so stressed out that I NEEDED to go away, and Gryphon is still my favorite place to hang.

Rewarding? You bet, especially in the gratitude of players whom I've helped. Frustrating? Oh, yes. Damn hard to pay the bills! Ironic? Unh-huh. It's taken me all this time to get really good at what I do, and now I've developed osteoarthritis in my hands, and feel my career will be foreshortened. (Some days it doesn't hurt - but today isn't one of them, hence the gloom.)

I also think it's a good idea to get into buying and selling instruments on the side, fixing them as needed. This will give you a true sense of the market for instruments, their history and originality. AND, it brings in cash. THAT is precisely how Gryphon Stringed Instruments became a retail operation, with repairs on the side. AND, it's the sales, NOT the repairs that pay the bills. Housing in this area is so expensive that I wonder if I could have survived on repair and building alone as an individual craftsman.

Roberto-Venn is the only federally accredited trade school offering training in lutherie, and has been such for a long while. In a five month program, they give a cursory training in the craft, and offer help in entry level job placement. So, they were the first place I looked when one of our repairmen resigned recently. Our new R-V person started work soon after, and he came with the highest recommendation of R-V's lead instructor, John Reuter. That recommendation carried enough weight that we didn't feel the need to any of his work, or checking any references. We expect a graduate of R-V to be screened and introduced to the craft of lutherie, but not experienced - in short - able to learn the trade.

ANY training, such as community college courses in woodworking, machine tool metal work, all that kind of stuff, will be REALLY important as you go along. Lately, I've gotten into lathe and milling machine work, and I've just realized how much I had been missing for the last 30 years! Virtually any craft has crossover techniques and skills.

Before you go out on your own, it's a good idea to get a job in a busy shop to smooth out your skills, learn the intricacies of the craft and to get started networking in the industry. If your aim is to work as an employee of an established business, don't forget to take a look at what opportunities may lie ahead within that business.

If your interest is in becoming an independent instrument builder, do understand that while it takes a lot of effort to learn to build fine instruments, it can be even harder to market them successfully. Most of us know of companies that owe a good deal of their success to heavy advertising or the endorsement of celebrities rather than the specific quality of their product. One of the most difficult challenges a good luthier has is to become recognized for the quality of a previously unknown instrument. That's one reason why so many start out by making direct copies of the most desirable vintage models, whether Stradivari violins or Martin guitars. Many of the finest luthiers I know have continued their careers on that same path.

[macjansson]

A little input from an amateur builder. I build mandolins from kits, and right now I am building a guitar from lumber I cut myself. I build these things in my spare time. The first mandolin I sold for less than the cost of the material. The second one I sold cheap but to a guy I know would get my mandolin some exposure. As I grow more experienced I charge more and more. Now a get a bit more than three times the cost of the materials. But really, anything less than ten times the cost of materials is just not enough. Right now I'm selling my mandolins cheap just to get them out there.

[Fretbear]

3. Just do it. Some of us got our start just tearing into things and getting into trouble. Make lots of mistakes and learn from them. Buy yard sale guitars and rebuild them. Buying and selling, fixing up along the way is an excellent way to learn the vintage market, too. It's all fine to see how things are done, but the real learning comes in doing the jobs.

This one is all you need to know.....Thanks for the great post Frank, and all the priceless knowledge and techniques you have shared on Frets.com

[MikeEdgerton]

Don't sugar-coat it Frank, tell us how you really feel

This thread will go into the archives to be pulled out the next time this question is asked if only because of Frank's post.

Some past threads on the subject:

Thread 1

Thread 2

Thread 3

Thread 4

There are probably a few more.

[re simmers]

I was laid off from my Education Director job at a trade school in Dec 2011. I'm 53 and that was my first time unemployed. I have a BS and an MS. I finally got a job 2 weeks ago. While unemployed I tried to turn a hobby into a job.......restoring and refinishing antiques. I learned a lot more about the trade. However, after spending 35 years working in office jobs and sending myself to college in the evenings and weekends, I could not make the transition very well. Most of my life, my spare time was used up with basketball, tennis & playing mandolin. I had not been 'consumed' by antique restoration. I love it, but not enough.

I needed a new/used tool every time I turned around. With no reputation I had to take any work I could get.........which wasn't much. Repairing crates, numerous old chairs, etc. And I do not have the skills to do the work efficiently enough to make money. If I were 20 yrs old, possibly.

Good advice here is that you look at how you spend your spare time........do your friends and family think of you as the go-to guy to fix wood things. Luthiery is a few steps away.

A friend of mine is an established, successful luthier/instrument builder...about my age. He completed a luthiery school 30 yrs ago. He spent at least 10 years doing repair work because no one wanted to buy from an unknown.

Based on my experience in adult education as a student and as an administrator, I do not think a formal college education is worth the time and money. I didn't think that until about 4 years ago, but the cost is now too outrageous.

Community college non-credit courses MAY be good........that all depends on the instructor.

Do not get sucked into thinking you have to attend a 'federally accredited' trade school. That just means that you can get federal financial aid. It doesn't necessarily mean the instructor, the program nor their shop is up to par.

Research, research, research,
-Mandolin Cafe (done)
-Luthiers - those who are successful, can communicate(not a 'given'), and are closer to your age
-Include part time luthiers, some of those are the best.
-if you are computer app minded, find a luthier that is.
-offer to intern with a luthier, even if you start out as an unpaid intern for a certain number of hours.
-if you can find a good one who is 6-8 hrs away, offer to intern for free for a day. It will be worth the day.
-check out the story/video of Lynn Dudenbostel's shop. Read about Gilchrist.
-ask lots and lost of stupid questions about every little detail. There are many tips that will save you time and money. Keep a journal.

[Mandophyte]

This one is all you need to know.....Thanks for the great post Frank, and all the priceless knowledge and techniques you have shared on Frets.com

+1 (really squillions and squillions), Cheers Frank!

[Mandobart]

...Based on my experience in adult education as a student and as an administrator, I do not think a formal college education is worth the time and money. I didn't think that until about 4 years ago, but the cost is now too outrageous...

I know I'm getting a little off topic, but this I wholeheartedly agree with. I have teenagers, and spend time with them and their friends. I don't discourage college, but please we have to quit telling kids that a college degree is a must-have. I spent several years in the USN. The first two were an intense training period for operating submarine nuclear power plants. I did my time, honorably discharged and decided I needed to go to college. Got a BS in Mechanical Engineering from one of the top 20 schools in the US. Got good grades. Started marketing myself in earnest a year prior to graduation, sending out hundreds of resumes from the west coast to the midwest. I received one single job offer, which I happily took. This was almost 20 years ago; jobs are tougher to find now, even for engineers.

Now I'm a shift manager at a power plant, making a better salary than any engineer I know. I enjoy the technical challenges of operating a 1200 MW plant and overseeing the great folks who work for me. The funny thing is I could have had this job with my navy training and several years experience as an operator at the plant, with no degree at all. So had I come to work at the power plant straight out of the navy instead of going to college, I would have the exact same job I have now, I just would have made 100's of 1000's more dollars along the way.

I know lots of college educated coffee barristas and bar tenders. Finally, the out of proportion focus on a college degree as the only way for young people to embark on a career has denigrated the value of skilled manual labor and craftsmanship. I recommend the book Shop Class as Soulcraft to everyone I know, especially young people.

[JEStanek]

Between Frank, Sunburst and Padma I think you get a good perspective from a wide range of luthier folk. Each has given you a gift to wrap your brain around. Think on it while you shape a plate or two.

Jamie

[journeybear]

I am not a luthier, but I know two - one who is well-known and well-respected, the other less so but he still gets more work than he can handle.

Players throughout New England, and probably plenty of other places as well, know or know of George Youngblood. He has been operating in southern Connecticut for over 35 years. I met him through an old friend, who was building a guitar under his tutelage. George fixed my old A model, which had a badly split back stemming from a rather stupid negligent act going back 6-7 years, during which things had moved considerably. He did what he could, even though it had gone too far to be restorable, and since he was rather new at this, used this as a bit of a learning experience. I can't recall how he was drawn to luthiery - during my many visits to his shops over the next quarter century he told me many stories of all sorts of things - but I do remember he had explored a lot of life's possibilities along the way before he found this. He applied himself wholeheartedly to his profession, learning all he could about his craft, scouring the countryside for antique tools, the same kinds used to build the instruments he was working on - a remarkably dedicated approach to authenticity. He took in repair work at first to pay the bills while he worked on his guitars, but somewhere along the line he realized he was making more money through repairs, and more quickly, than through build commissions, so he concentrated on that. His skill and reputation have grown over the years to the point where one day he told me that sometimes Gibson sends him work that is beyond their capabilities. He has devoted his life to his craft, and this has kept him going through a devastating flood, failed relationships, and an overwhelming workload, obstacles that might have deterred many people. But he has done very well for himself in the process, and has a career that has sustained himself for a long time and will continue to do so for a long time to come.

The other luthier is actually a bass repairman, although he has been known to apply his skills to other instruments as well. David Mix was the bass player in one of my old bands, and still plays bass in a couple of jazz ensembles. But he has been making a living fixing basses for at least 25 years, and seems quite adept at his craft. I don't know how he got started in this - probably took it upon himself to fix his own, used that legendary Yankee ingenuity to learn more about the field, and grew from there - but over the years he has kept himself quite busy with this enterprise. His house is packed with basses in various stages of repair; indeed, one room seems to be always filled with basses just waiting to get worked on. He is the go-to guy for the local high school, and this account probably pays the bills by itself. He is not the artist or artisan Youngblood is, nor wishes to be, but his practical and affordable approach keeps business coming his way.

I offer these anecdotes as examples of what Zach or anyone interested in a career as a luthier can expect to find from choosing this path. It may make for some frustrating, troublesome times - customers rarely want to hear about what it takes for their instrument to be fixed, just when it will be done and what it will cost, and why can't both these figures be smaller - but it can also be very rewarding and fulfilling. Working with one's hands and tools on a well-crafted artifact that produces much joy for the owner can also produce much joy for the craftsman, and being able to support oneself independently by doing something you feel good about and take pride in doing can bring you satisfaction like few other activities can. You will have to apply yourself diligently to learn everything you can about it for a good long time in order to reach a point where you can do this, but it can provide a return on your investment, if you can hang in there long enough, well worth your effort. I hope these provide some helpful insight.

[StevenS]

These personality traits come to mind -

1. Obsessed with woodworking, music and sound.
2. Persistent to a point that seems slightly crazy to most people.
3. Ego-centric yet willing to hear feedback.
4. Scientific yet practical. Curious in a way that moves you from studying to doing. (Look at Frank Ford's web postings to see this in action.)
5. Driven for perfection but willing to settle for excellent. (John Hamlett's postings -- AKA "Sunburst" here)
6. Able to remember mistakes and throw away failures.
7. Generally optimistic.
8. Motivated by the belief your work is important - think about a radio host talking to a microphone in a lonely radio station in the middle of the night . . . who somehow knows that there are people listening.
9. A strange blend of introvert and extrovert. Able to both work alone and sell.
10. Able to discern what makes for great design, appealing tone, and player enjoyment - extremely sensitive to the auditory, tactile and visual responses of others to your work. (See #6,7,8)
11. Determined enough to have learned that just beyond, "This is impossible, I quit!" is where the real starting-line awaits.
12. Good at math -- measurements mean something tangible and clear in your head and help to guide your hands. (The old saying, "Measure twice, Cut once." only works if you measure accurately and use the measurements correctly!)
Steve

[Dobe]

As Clint Eastwood once said " starvin' aint' much of a livin' " (or something like that). Seriously though, dive right in. If you get bit, you're on yer way !

(badly bit hobby builder since 95)

Dobro Dave

[grandcanyonminstrel]

22 posts so far and nobody has mentioned what is probably the most important asset to a career as a luthier- a spouse with a good job!!!

As for the college nay-sayers...how can anybody in good faith tell someone else that seven years of chasing girls and partying every night of the month is a waste of time????

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

[StevenS]

+1 for the load-bearing spouse!

James,
What was the rush? Speeding through college in a mere 7 years seems a little over zealous!
Steve

[Audio Artillery]

One other thing to consider is that luthier is not just a profession, it can also be a hobby. And it can be a very good hobby to complement an office job. I have a challenging engineering job but there's still time to build instruments at night and on weekends. Carving a plate or a neck is the perfect end to a day of writing software.

I am strongly on the pro-college side of this thread. Even ignoring the enormous boost in wages and employability, college is a good opportunity to get around smart people and do clever things with them. Also if you want to go into luthiery after college I would suggest majoring in something like mechanical or electrical engineering and make sure you learn how to work things like Solidworks and servo motors. Knowing how to work a CAD program and a CNC router can let you try a lot of ideas quickly.