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Thread: Need Practice Regime

  1. #1

    Default Need Practice Regime

    Hello,

    I picked up the mandolin a few months ago and have been playing fairly consistently since then.....

    What I can do

    * Read music semi-fluently

    *Pentatonic scales

    *Major scales

    * Play a few songs

    *Simple improv things that kind of sound like jigs

    * Aonzo scales

    What I can't do

    * memorize music well ...no interest at all

    * form chords quickly

    * venture to the upper frets often

    * play songs with a flat instead of a sharp even though a sharp for the lower note fits (can anyone explain to me why they do that)

    * improvise chords and notes into a decent improv song

    * playing by ear

    *probably alot more that I am not aware of

    What I want to do

    *improv well

    * read sheet music fluently

    *play by ear



    Well I probably could think of more things but that's basically where i'm at. I don't have one particular type of music I want to learn, and that might be why I don't know what direction I want to go with a practice schedule. However I know I want to be able to improvise better. I guess my question is what do you guys recommend for a practice schedule that will improve overall improv skills in a way that isn't genre specific?

  2. #2
    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Hi - I'm 6 1/2 years into playing from scratch, & i'm an ear player. The way i decided to do it was to get a good book of chords & learn all the basic '3 chord tricks' in the major keys.That's not hard because all the 4 finger chords are 'moveable' up & down the neck. C: C-F-G7-Am
    G: G-C-D7-Em
    D: D-G-A7-Bm
    A: A-D-E7-F#m
    E: E-A-B7-C#m
    F: F-Bb-C7-Dm Armed with those chords ,i then used my CD's & I/net radio as 'pickalong' tools to play along with. It takes time as does anything worth doing well,but the more you learn,the easier it gets to learn even more. Pick a few tunes that you really like to play,simple things,that don't need a lot of memorising. One of the tunes i began with is "Angeline The Baker". It's a simple melody & i taught myself to play it inthe key of A - but any key that you want to play it in is fine.I believe that it's usually played inthe key of 'D',so i did that as well.
    'Playing by ear' is an art in itself,& not only do you have to train your self to play the Mandoloin (or 'whatever') you have to train your ears to listen through a tune to hear the part that you want to play. Listen a lot & as often as you can to the tunes that you want to play. Get the tunes into your head so you can mentally hear them,then when you come to play them,play what you're hearing in your head. It sounds slightly crazy,but that's how we all do it eventually,even if you learned the tunes from music. Playing by ear is beneficial whenit comes to 'jamming' as well.You'll learn to pick up on tunes quickly.You'll know by the sound of the tunes what chords are being used.That's another thing when learning by ear - forget the names of the notes in the begining,find where the 'sounds' are on your fingerboard. When you first hear a tune,you hear the sounds of the notes,you don't need to know what the actual names of the notes are,the position on the fingerboard will tell you that once you've found the sound.You'll eventually learn the names of the notes by default as you learn where the sounds are.
    Ultimately,it's all down to sticking at it & practicing.Once you begin to learn a few tunes,if you get some time to yourself,instead of a 'regimented' practice session,sit around & 'noodle' for an hour or so. By that i mean,try things out for yourself,
    play the tunes that you know & try playing them up the neck,adding your own bits & pieces,you might surprise yourself.
    Whatever,there's no reason to rush at it. Nothing comes easy, & even the very best players had to start somewhere,so don't have un-realistic expectations of yourself & your ability. Stick at it,practice & understand what you're doing & you'll get there maybe quicker than you think - good luck,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    AJ-
    Sounds like you're already making good progress at reading music. You will no doubt continue to improve skills there. Playing by ear will come at it's own pace. To speed this up, always try to include in your practice at least a brief period of playing the melody part from one or two of the most basic songs from childhood/TV/Sunday School/films/radio, whatever by ear, just melody. Songs you already know in your head!

    I suggest you choose songs without regard for the style of music you are working at in your regular practice. Whatever nonsensical litle tune you want to get even with for getting stuck in your head those times! No need to practice each one to virtuosity...pick another next time and eventually try a few songs your parents would like. Use lots of the neck during these dalliances just for the heck of it. This is the noodling that Ivan was referring to.

    Improv will improve with ear development, but there are more formula approaches like playing pentatonic scale based or maj/minor scale based arpeggios over the chord arrangement. But I really appreciate someone being able to improvise around the melody well, and I think that calls for a developed ear.

    Switching chords quickly is all in memorizing the voicings/finger positions and enough repetion to impart muscle memory. This is a chore at first, but it is a pleasant chore if you find some folks to play with regularly. In fact, I think jamming with other pickers will great advance your learning in all of these areas. Use basic two finger chord positions until you develop consistent chord changes, then move on to the other shapes. If jamming with others isn't happening, try strumming chords along with Cafe members who post otunes n the Song-A Week Group, or other online stuff. All this takes a while you know. Make sure you have as much fun as possible in the process!

    Scott

  4. #4
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    I don't have one particular type of music I want to learn
    There might be a core issue hidden there. Once you're out of the basics like hand positions and scales, technique gets genre-specific.
    It also raises the question of how to measure achievement: if you dont have song X as played by Y as a favourite and as an ultimate goal, what do you compare your own sound to so you are happy with the result (or not)?
    Later, it will raise the question of authenticity: if you can play a genre technically well but don't really feel it, you can't make others feel it, too.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  5. #5

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    All the advice given so far is really insightful and I appreciate it thanks all!Bertram I guess my biggest thing with not picking a specific type of genre yet is that I dont want to confine myself to one. Instead of picking one I kind of have the ideal that if I play, and play varied (and fundamentally like different types of scales from each style without delving into the technique and style of each) , my improv will reflect a tendency towards a type of music and then I can delve into it. I'm starting to think this is not really how it works so I guess i'm just procrastinating. Anyone have suggestions on style specific technique books?Any kind seeing as I am still indecisive

  6. #6

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    For comparison I used to record videos of me improving or trying a song and listen to it after, now i just ask myself do i think this sounds good? or pleasant to the ear? Im not really comparing it against anything except my own experience of what I would consider decent sounding

  7. #7
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    ...now i just ask myself do i think this sounds good? or pleasant to the ear? Im not really comparing it against anything except my own experience of what I would consider decent sounding
    That's how you measure progress vs. your former self, and that's OK as long as you play alone. Once you get into playing with others (which I strongly recommend), the comparisons will pop up by themselves. Talking about playing with others: I didn't see timing on your list - do you get along well with your metronome?
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

  8. #8

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Never really got into it. I just play songs at paces that I think sound right or feel right; varies with my mood. So in terms of technical conscious time skills=None....I'm guessing you're going to say I should probably incorporate a metronome into my practice

  9. #9
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    I'm guessing you're going to say I should probably incorporate a metronome into my practice
    Absolutely. Time is an even more basic and essential skill in music than scales. You'll be forgiven for playing a wrong note, but not for playing out of time.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote - "....not picking a specific type of genre...". That's the single biggest fault with my Guitar aspirations (if i still have any that is !).I like almost every style & i haven't been able to concentrate on any one of them to be any good. Being 'non-specific' can be a set-back in itself,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    A way around being non-specific which I've observed others use, is to devote periods of your development to near total immersion in a style, then just use your other styles for recreation during that period. By periods I'm talking a year or so of composer / style x followed by a similar period of y etc. The old stuff goes rusty, but due to the prolonged period of living in that genre it comes back very quickly with practice. So from that I would say choose a style which seems accessible for your curent level and which will provide a good stepping-stone for the style you want to do next. One which will drive certain areas you see lacking at present.

    Having observed this being done successfully by a piano player and a violinist I know, I decided to spend two years focussing almost entirely on Bluegrass, jamming and doing residential courses etc.
    I have of course being playing in a mandolin orchestra at the same time, while looking into the blues, italian mandolin tunes, some Irish jigs, American folk, and have just begun to nibble at Bach variations......... well I definitely didn't say that I was doing what I should.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall View Post
    Quote - "....not picking a specific type of genre...". ... Being 'non-specific' can be a set-back in itself,
    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    A way around being non-specific which I've observed others use, is to devote periods of your development to near total immersion in a style, then just use your other styles for recreation during that period.
    That is an excellent description of what I ended up doing. Identify one style or genre, for now, as the passion, and the others as "also fun", and go for it. Then somewhere down the lane switch. Follow your evolving interests while keeping a main direction.

    To put it in crass testosterone poisoned language, keep a steady, but flirt.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    I'm guessing you're going to say I should probably incorporate a metronome into my practice
    Everything you don't work on doesn't get worked on. So yea, metronome is critical.

    But in reality, you can't work on everything all the time. Unfortunate but true.

    I guess the thing to keep in mind is that those skills you put aside to work on later, won't develop significantly until later.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    play songs with a flat instead of a sharp even though a sharp for the lower note fits (can anyone explain to me why they do that)
    It's an ease of use thing. If you go one way around the circle of fifths (do you know the circle of fifths?), each new scale adds one sharp each time. If you go the other way, each new scale adds one flat each time. They eventually meet in the middle at the "scary end" ( ) of the circle. But if you keep going around the circle by adding sharps, you start getting to scale with double sharps (notes with two sharps moving the note up a whole step). Same with flats. It's much easier to think flats than sharps at that point.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Andy

    "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

  15. #15

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    * play songs with a flat instead of a sharp even though a sharp for the lower note fits (can anyone explain to me why they do that)
    It's similar to asking why we should use "their" or "there":
    - They sound identical
    - They mean different things (different functions)
    - If you are listening to someone speak/play, it doesn't matter how their spelling it in there head
    - If you mess it up and spell it the wrong way, some people get put out even though they'll usually understand what you meant
    - Others won't notice or care how you spell it as long as it sounds good
    - If you want to discuss the structure of the language with others, then you'll need to learn the difference

    Cheers
    Mark RT
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    thanks all, everything is informative.....Umm Fish--> I have worked with the circle of fifths, but I didn't commit it to memory because I just mentally inventory the notes that are sharpened. Currently I am good at doing that with three sharps, still working on it, that's why the whole flattened C/F or sharpened B/E bugs me. It's just adding a little more time to me processing the note and it slows me down....for those who have suggested playing in a group; I don't know anyone else who plays mandolin, and don't really know how I would go about finding people to play with

  17. #17

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    I think I want to learn gypsy swing(if that's a style?) if it is can anyone direct me to resources?

  18. #18
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    ....for those who have suggested playing in a group; I don't know anyone else who plays mandolin, and don't really know how I would go about finding people to play with
    Playing with others on a regular basis is the single most effective thing you can do to improve your playing. If you can add regular jamming or playing with others to your regime you will have really set the stage for some life changing progress on the mandolin.

    Doesn't have to be other mandolin players. Doesn't have to be the exact kind of music you want to play. Try folkjam.com, and other sites that locate music. Google folk music or music in your area. Check with folks at your music store, or a local college student union, your church. Talk to folks carrying guitar cases. Find a group, introduce yourself and attend regularly. As you sit and listen and perhaps play along, you might also ask about other jams in the area, or musical events, or resources.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Beanzy / Jeff - That's more or less what i decided to do. As i play Bluegrass Banjo & Mandolin,go for the Bluegrass Guitar aspect.The trouble there is,that being a Banjer finger-picker,i'm also a Guitar finger-picker. I've tried 'flat picking' & i'm about as bad as i was on Mandolin when i first began.Maybe i'm simply too lazy to start over on another instrument,especially as it would take time off my Mandolin playing - Mandolin is THAT addictive.
    Re. 'Gypsy Swing' style. Take a peek at the 'Jazz Mando.' site & make contact with Ted Eschliman.If anybody can suggest a starting point,it's that gent,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    I have worked with the circle of fifths, but I didn't commit it to memory because I just mentally inventory the notes that are sharpened. Currently I am good at doing that with three sharps, still working on it, that's why the whole flattened C/F or sharpened B/E bugs me.
    (A bit of an aside to the main post but as you mention it)
    The trick I used to remember what order the sharps are added is a rhyme.
    "Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle" They're in fifths too and begin on Gmaj

    for the flats add them in this order.
    "Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles" These begin from Fmaj then Bb etc.

    I don't know why this meaningless silly rhyme stuck in my thick skull, but it did and that's why I don't get stuck on them anymore.
    I just post it as I hope it'll be useful to someone else.


    You'd be surprised of the power of a wee note posted up in the local music shops or even in community centres or bars.
    Just decide on a date, venue and time. Make it look like you're not some nutter or stalker trawling for victims (don't just scrawl it in green crayon etc.), then post it up and turn up for a good few weeks/ months even if you're the only one. It'll eventually dig them out of the woodwork.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

  21. #21

    Default Re: Need Practice Regime

    Quote Originally Posted by ajistheki18 View Post
    thanks all, everything is informative.....Umm Fish--> I have worked with the circle of fifths, but I didn't commit it to memory because I just mentally inventory the notes that are sharpened. Currently I am good at doing that with three sharps, still working on it, that's why the whole flattened C/F or sharpened B/E bugs me. It's just adding a little more time to me processing the note and it slows me down....
    Think of it this way: When you switch from one scale to another clockwise (the sharps direction) around the circle--say, from C to G or G to D or D to A, etc.--the sharp is always on the seventh note, so you don't really need to memorize them. The new sharp is always the seventh.

    Notice, too, the pattern C to G to D to A to E to B. By going up a fifth, every other scale is up one whole step from the scale two before. C -> D -> E -> F#. G -> A -> B -> C#.

    There are tons and tons of patterns in the circle. Once you understand the patterns then you hardly need to memorize the scales. In fact, the patterns are almost (I might strike out the almost) more important than the scales themselves.

    Going the other way around the circle, the new flat is always on the fourth note of the scale (F, G, A, Bb....).

    There's also a similar relationship between the scales C to F to Bb to Eb. Every other scale is a whole step down from the scale two before.

    Notice, too, that in this direction, the next new scale is always the note that you flatted from the scale before. You play the C scale. The next scale is F (the note that was flatted from the G scale). The next is Bb, the note that was flatted. The next is Eb, the note you flatted. Etc.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Andy

    "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

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