How do you amplify your mandolin for live gigs?

**almeriastrings** · May-05-2012, 1:43pm

Originally Posted by Tim2723

Sorry, but I must beg to differ. I've had mine apart several times and there's no resemblance whatsoever to the one you reference. Perhaps there are different versions and what you've shown is used somewhere, but mine are certainly not piezo elements, just a bit of coax with the outside stripped off..

This?

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/43...h_quality.html

http://www.imagesco.com/catalog/sensors/piezocoax.html

**Tim2723** · May-05-2012, 2:00pm

Possibly closer to the second, but still not exactly it. As I suspected, there seems to be variations on the theme, so I think we both have parts of the picture. I call it coax because two very reliable technicians of my acquaintance called it that. There is something called piezo coax though, so maybe. When I think of a piezoelectric bridgeI picture crystal elements burried in the saddle.

**journeybear** · May-05-2012, 2:06pm

Originally Posted by Tim2723

... I'm not insisting that anyone do what I suggest of course, but having used them I have to offer my honest opinion. It is, of course, just that and worth every penny it cost.

Touché!

Actually, since you have been down the MK road already, your opinion is probably more relevant than anyone else's offered so far. It's just tough to bite the bullet and start over; usually one would rather find a way to get what one has already to work.

**Bauzl** · May-05-2012, 2:06pm

Yesterday we had a special gig: no amplification for the instruments needed at all in a small club (approx. 20 people in the audience). We only used some mics for the vocals so we didn't need to shout.

This is to my opinion the optimum for authentic sound (the absolute optimum would be to avoid the vocal mics as well ;-)
The mando has to compete with guitar, fiddle, upright and sometimes electric bass (which was amplified of course) and cajon + high heads.

For some time you can download set 1 here:
http://uploaded.to/file/qklg9w4j

We used the same setup in front of 80 to 100 people. We knew upfront, that the audience would be very silent (definitely not a bar): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-gdobFsyg0

In larger venues I use a DPA 4099V clip on mic. Still we like to play without monitors. So DPA direct to the board is a good option. If you directly hear the PA its possible to control your dynamics quite accurate simply by playing softer or louder as needed. Against all my preconceptions I learned that having the PA speakers behind you can be a very fine thing in small places, when the volume is low enough to avoid feedback (mainly caused by the vocal mics in this case).

In even larger venues or outdoors, when monitors are needed, I plug the DPA into a JoeMeek ThreeQ preamp and use its insert for a Morley optical volume pedal. I use it for a decent boost during the solos and reduce the volume to the configurable minimum during backing up.

I have to admit that I enjoy playing an especially loud Krishot Garnet F mandolin. With my old Washborn I was always struggling with feedback problems and had to use a pickup. I was never satisfied with the sound of the pickup though.

I also have to admit, that I more often than never need to play very hard in order to be heard. I think that my playing suffers from playing very loud. I am not at a high level of playing and should avoid that.

**Tim2723** · May-05-2012, 2:24pm

Originally Posted by journeybear

It's just tough to bite the bullet and start over; usually one would rather find a way to get what one has already to work.

Perfectly true. Moreover, it's uncommon for someone to come straight out and suggest starting over. Yet how many of us have sold one thing to finance another, or simply to rid ourselves of something we didn't like as much as we'd hoped to? Anyone who has ever bought mandolin, played it a while, discovered it wasn't exactly what they wanted and then sold it can say so. And to me that's how I read (or perhaps misread) the original post.

**almeriastrings** · May-05-2012, 2:26pm

Originally Posted by Tim2723

There is something called piezo coax though, so maybe. When I think of a piezoelectric bridgeI picture crystal elements burried in the saddle.

There are many forms of piezo element. The "piezo coax" is used these days on a lot on instruments. It has advantages and disadvantages. Advantages, for the maker, are that it is a) cheap b) very easy to fit and 'moulds' to the saddle slot without any messing around. A disadvantage (to my ears) is that it does not sound as good as really well-designed custom element. Can be rather "muddy" and "quacky".

**Tim2723** · May-05-2012, 2:37pm

I see, thanks. Perhaps the quacky, inexpensive pickup and the poorly matched preamp are causing the 'metallic sound' that the OP seems to dislike. It would make sense.

Henceforth I will describe the System One pickup as an inexpensive piezo coax rather than say it's not a piezo pickup.

Despite having made a flawed description, my opinion stands. MK acoustic-electrics sell for $600 - $900 and for that money you can do better. I also don't think they're a good candidate for re-working at any significant expense. If playing into a mic works OK, then fine, but I wouldn't dump a lot of money into one.

**Terry Allan Hall** · May-06-2012, 12:46pm

a pair of JJB SBTs into a Baggs Para-Acoustic into either my Crate Limo50 (small solo gigs/busking) or my Carvin PA system - PA1200 mixer/LM12 cabs (larger solo/acoustic trio {guitar/mandolin, bass, percussion} gigs).

Peavey "Red Line" Envoy 110 for electric gigs {lead guitar/mandolin, rhythm guitar, bass, drums}.

**Terry Allan Hall** · May-06-2012, 12:54pm

Originally Posted by Bauzl

Yesterday we had a special gig: no amplification for the instruments needed at all in a small club (approx. 20 people in the audience). We only used some mics for the vocals so we didn't need to shout.

This is to my opinion the optimum for authentic sound (the absolute optimum would be to avoid the vocal mics as well ;-)
The mando has to compete with guitar, fiddle, upright and sometimes electric bass (which was amplified of course) and cajon + high heads.

For some time you can download set 1 here:
http://uploaded.to/file/qklg9w4j

We used the same setup in front of 80 to 100 people. We knew upfront, that the audience would be very silent (definitely not a bar): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-gdobFsyg0

In larger venues I use a DPA 4099V clip on mic. Still we like to play without monitors. So DPA direct to the board is a good option. If you directly hear the PA its possible to control your dynamics quite accurate simply by playing softer or louder as needed. Against all my preconceptions I learned that having the PA speakers behind you can be a very fine thing in small places, when the volume is low enough to avoid feedback (mainly caused by the vocal mics in this case).

In even larger venues or outdoors, when monitors are needed, I plug the DPA into a JoeMeek ThreeQ preamp and use its insert for a Morley optical volume pedal. I use it for a decent boost during the solos and reduce the volume to the configurable minimum during backing up.

I have to admit that I enjoy playing an especially loud Krishot Garnet F mandolin. With my old Washborn I was always struggling with feedback problems and had to use a pickup. I was never satisfied with the sound of the pickup though.

I also have to admit, that I more often than never need to play very hard in order to be heard. I think that my playing suffers from playing very loud. I am not at a high level of playing and should avoid that.

String band w/ hand percussion = very cool!

**jsphrdvs** · May-14-2012, 2:31pm

Thanks for all your input. It's been extremely helpful. Thanks to Tim2723 for the perspective of my MK mandolin and pickup. I bought this before I even knew how to play. It's hard to choose the right mandolin when you don't know how to play one. I've only been playing mandolin for a few years now and only played live a few times so far. While I know it's time for an upgrade, I'll also explore using a microphone to see if that helps a little. The Shure SM - 57 got quite a few recommendations, so I'll look into that.

Thanks again.
J.D.

**almeriastrings** · May-14-2012, 2:56pm

If shopping for an SM-57 best to avoid Ebay or similar at all costs. Flooded with outright fakes from China. Many of these are extremely good fakes... with convincing packaging and paperwork. The SM-58 is also widely faked. I'd buy only from a fully authorized and trustworthy pro dealer. Some third-party sellers on Amazon also supply counterfeit junk.... buyer beware!

**JeffD** · May-14-2012, 4:30pm

I am very encouraged by everyone who had recommended the Shure SM-57. That is what I use, and not because I know what I am doing. Being naive, I thought that since I play 80% of the time without amplification, it did not make sense to make a permenant modification to the instrument. So I went to a mic. And the sales guy, recommended to me by a knowledgeable friend, actually understood me when I said I wanted to sound as accoustic as possible, only louder.

**Markus** · May-15-2012, 5:11am

I prefer:
AT pro37 SDC -> AMP/board

When things get louder, I will go with a SM57 to avoid feedback. I have actually started using my Beta58 instead as it seems a little more sensitive/clearer. At times will run in combination with piezo, using piezos primarily for volume boost during solos.

When I think about earplugs, that is when it goes k+k -> preamp -> amp/board. At that volume, lack of feedback is more important than nuance.

**Tim2723** · May-15-2012, 5:16am

Jeff, your experience is entirely valid and not at all surprising, since it has been repeated millions of times around the world for decades. And for good reason. The Shure SM-57/58 is the true workhorse of the amplification world. They're found everywhere. They are accurate, reliable, affordable, and easy to use. Any sound tech worth his salt will know just what to do with one. Some advanced mixing boards even have presets built in for them because they're so popular. They are often regarded as the industry standard. You could travel half way around the world, hand a qualified tech a '57, and he'd know all about it.

That, however, is why Almeriastrings' comment is poignant. They are being counterfeited like everything else that's good. Like all counterfeits they're...well, let's not get into that.

Like all good mics, they reproduce what they hear. That's a big part of why I got into this conversation in the first place. An MK acoustic-electric isn't intended to be mic'ed. None of them are; it's not their purpose. They exist to avoid microphones. Playing an AE mandolin through a microphone will certainly amplify it, but it will be amplifying a sound that wasn't intended to go through a microphone. When you play through a mic you have to start with a sound you like. Just making a sound you dislike louder doesn't help, and twiddling the EQ with a microphone to make something sound different can be a disaster. The AE sound is more than just its pickup, it's also they way the instrument is built from the ground up.

**Tim2723** · May-15-2012, 6:05am

Originally Posted by jsphrdvs

Thanks for all your input. It's been extremely helpful. Thanks to Tim2723 for the perspective of my MK mandolin and pickup. I bought this before I even knew how to play. It's hard to choose the right mandolin when you don't know how to play one. I've only been playing mandolin for a few years now and only played live a few times so far. While I know it's time for an upgrade, I'll also explore using a microphone to see if that helps a little. The Shure SM - 57 got quite a few recommendations, so I'll look into that.

Thanks again.
J.D.

J.D., I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I have no right to do that, but I've been in your shoes and I've wasted a pile of money on a pile of disappointment. If you have a mic, try it. It might work. But if it doesn't get you what you want don't fall into the trap of getting 'better' and more expensive mics in the hope of changing things. I'd hate to see you end up like me with a mandolin you don't like, a bunch of stuff that doesn't help, and an empty wallet.

Look, all I'm really trying to say is that you have to own the right tool for your needs. You can't buy a Martin and expect the Gibson sound, or the other way around. AE mandolins aren't the do-all and end-all. Most folks who get them end up selling them. For 15 years I've earned my living with them and most of the time I recommend against them. They're very specialized tools for very specialized needs. From everything you've said so far I can't help but think you've got the wrong tool, and you can't turn a hammer into a screwdriver.

**jsphrdvs** · May-18-2012, 12:36pm

Originally Posted by Tim2723

J.D., I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I have no right to do that, but I've been in your shoes and I've wasted a pile of money on a pile of disappointment. If you have a mic, try it. It might work. But if it doesn't get you what you want don't fall into the trap of getting 'better' and more expensive mics in the hope of changing things. I'd hate to see you end up like me with a mandolin you don't like, a bunch of stuff that doesn't help, and an empty wallet.

Look, all I'm really trying to say is that you have to own the right tool for your needs. You can't buy a Martin and expect the Gibson sound, or the other way around. AE mandolins aren't the do-all and end-all. Most folks who get them end up selling them. For 15 years I've earned my living with them and most of the time I recommend against them. They're very specialized tools for very specialized needs. From everything you've said so far I can't help but think you've got the wrong tool, and you can't turn a hammer into a screwdriver.

Tim, Thanks for the additional feedback. I am actually looking for a new acoustic mando as well. My MK also has some buzzing on the G string that is pretty annoying and I can't seem to get rid of even after taking it to a luthier. The American made mandos are typically out of my price range ($600 - $1000), so I'm looking at Eastman, Kentucky and Loar.

J.D.

**Tim2723** · May-18-2012, 12:41pm

You'll do very well looking at those brands. I mentioned Gibson and Martin as a metaphor, but you get my meaning.

**Mike7300** · May-20-2012, 11:26pm

Do you think putting a pic up on a mandolin and then plugging it into a PA will be loud enough playing with a full band and drums? I don't have an acoustic type amp, just a tube amp/

**almeriastrings** · May-20-2012, 11:38pm

If you are playing with an electrified band, with drums, then you might have issues even with a pickup. Microphone? Forget it in that context. It depends what the ambient levels are on stage, in other words, how loud? Just like a semi-acoustic guitar (e.g. ES335), the feedback threshold is a lot lower than with a solid-body instrument, like a Tele or Strat. For really loud blues bands, or rock stuff, a solid body electric mandolin with magnetic pickups will give you far more headroom before feedback than you'll manage with an acoustic instrument + added soundboard transducer or undersaddle pickup.

**Tim2723** · May-21-2012, 6:10am

In addition to a solid-body instrument, you might check out the Godin A-8 and Ovation mandolins. They are remarkably feedback resistant while retaining much of the acoustic character.

**jsphrdvs** · Apr-20-2013, 11:44am

It's been about a year since I posted the question about amplification. I went with the Shure SM-57 mic and shortly after that I upgraded to an Eastman 515. It's a good mic and sounds good with the Eastman, but the problem is I'm in a band with a guy who sings vocals, plays guitar and banjo and he is very loud on all of them. I'm not getting enough volume with the mic, so I decided to go with a K&K internal twin pickup and some kind of preamp, either the Radial Pre Z or the LR Baggs Venue DI. I'm having trouble deciding on which one would be better for me.

Thanks again!

JD

**Terry Allan Hall** · Apr-20-2013, 9:13pm

2 JJB transducerss (exactly the same element as the K & K, but w/o the magazine ads, so considrably less expensive), one under each end of the bridge -> Baggs Para-Acoustic DI/preamp -> PA or (occasionally a Rocktrom Rampage acoustic amp). Excellent tone and very natural.

Have never used the LR Baggs Venue DI, but like the Baggs PADI a lot, so presume that the Venue is very good.