How do you amplify your mandolin for live gigs?

[jsphrdvs]

Hello,

I'm new to playing live and not very educated in the choices to amplify my mandolin. Right now I'm playing a Michael Kelly mandolin with a Fishman pickup. It does the job, but sometimes I think I lose the acoustic qualities of the mandolin and it sounds a little metallic. However, I'm not sure whether to blame my mandolin or the pickups.

What do you recommend for amplification? Do you like pickups, or stand up mics, or clip on mics? Any why?

Thanks,
J.D.

[texaspaul]

That is the case with most piezo bridge pick ups and many PAC-rim mandolins. I get a better sound using the L R Baggs PARA ACCOUSTIC D.I. I can shape the sound with the EQ. I sometimes use a Crate 125 Acoustc amp but mostly a P.A & MIXER. I also like the LR Bagg's Radius pick up. I have a mandolin with a Fishman 100 bridge pick up and can't stand the harsh sound without the PARA ACCOUSTIC D.I.

[lenf12]

Fishman pickups will benefit from some experimentation and tweaking of the EQ. I assume you're going straight into a PA or amp and that your Fishman pup has a pre-amp to match the impedances. For EQ, I prefer to begin by rolling everything off, then gradually adding the bass (to around 10 or 11 o'clock), mids (to about 9 o'clock) and highs (to about 9 or 10 o'clock). The mid frequencies are not your friends if you're getting a metallic sound when amplified.

I recently switched from using my Gibson '56 F-12 with a K&K pup to a cheap Kentucky KM-340S with a JJB Electronics pup. I usually plug into a DI or Art MP preamp then directly into the mixing board. I find the Kentucky/JJB setup to be not only a little better sounding and easier to control the sound (not as hot as the K&K), but I mostly worry a lot less about my Gibby being stolen or broken when playing the bar gigs.

Good luck!
Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Ian Rossiter]

K&K mandolin pickup into a Radial PRE Z Pre ( preamp/eq/DI/Switcher), into the board.

[herbsandspices]

Schertler C-Dyn-S (now called the Internal Resocoil) > LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI > my amp (Schertler Unico) or house PA.

I rock the same setup with my ukulele, and love it. No feedback, and a nice warm natural sound. YMMV!

[Doug Edwards]

K & K Silver Bullet condensor microphone direct into the PA. ( it has it's own DI box)

[mandroid]

Dyn M stick on [or C dyn s , Mix build in], direct to Roland AC 60,
If I ever get a place where there is more .. needed,
there are output jacks on the back ..

A Y'ha AG stomp can go in an Efx loop on the back
more reverb types and a bit of gain.

Mostly it's just Pub Jams with friends , no amps.

[foldedpath]

DPA 4099 mini condenser mic using the violin clamp, with the mic aimed at bottom of the lower (treble side) F hole, then straight to the PA. Same thing for my octave mandolin or Dobro, using the DPA guitar clamp.

I just don't like the sound of a pickup compared to a microphone, even one with just a tiny bit of air in front of it, like the clip-on type. Every time in the past that I've used pickups with acoustic instruments, I get sucked down the rabbit hole of trying to "improve" the sound with different preamps and EQ, and it's never as good as the sound of a good mic. A mic doesn't need any of that.

I understand why people use pickups; it's a simple setup, it's easier to use effects or a volume pedal inline, doesn't require phantom power, and so on. And yes, pickups are probably the last solution that works on a very loud stage. Personally though, I'll do almost anything to avoid having to use a pickup... including playing the style of music ("Celtic", Blues and Jazz) where the stage just isn't that loud. It's easier on these tired 'ol ears, too.

[Mike Bunting]

AKG C411 or K&K (depending on mando) into an AER to board.

[EarlG]

All the answers seem to come from folks with experience but shouldn't the question be asked what is the band mix or is there one? Are you all acoustic or are there electric guitars and drums?

My thought is go electric if you're in an electric band (mandocaster, godin a8, and others) and use a good mic if you're all acoustic. Pickups always change the sound more than a mic to me but a mic just won't work mixing with electric instruments.

Having said that, I'm sure there are some great sound people that can make anything work but I'm talking just the average band trying to get a decent sound.

[Paul Kotapish]

A workhorse SM-57 or C1000. If an engineer really wants to put something "nicer" in front of me, I'll try it, but if the mando kicks out a fair amount of acoustic energy and you aren't playing in a rock band, it's hard to beat the 57.

Simple, universally available, reliable, and good sounding--as long as you are going for an acoustic sound at a reasonable volume.

I spent a decade tweaking the ideal on-board situation with custom-built pickups and mics wired in stereo, preamps, a Rane AP-13, various pedals, etc., and finally decided that the SM-57 sounded best in more live situations than any other alternative--including some great condenser mics (that would have been great in the studio but were a hassle on stage)--than anything else I'd tried, and way, way, way better than almost any piezo or magnetic solution.

If you want to play loud--especially if you need screaming monitors--you'll need to go with some kind of pickup. If you play in hushed concert halls with a great front end, it might be worth considering a more refined condenser.

[mrmando]

I've been gigging mostly with the Rigel of late ... using the proprietary Rigel pickup into a Rane MAP33. To deal with the abysmal monitor situation at my church, I finally plugged a Bluetooth transmitter into the headphone jack on the Rane, and paired it with an ordinary Bluetooth cell phone headset. Now I have a truly wireless in-ear monitor, no belt pack or little cord needed. This also enables me to play the Aceto NV 5-string electric fiddle and have an idea of what it actually sounds like.

My standard fiddle and Donaldson F5 both have the "blended Fishman" setup: bridge transducer plus Crown mini-microphone ... that way,when I play them I can take advantage of the Rane's signal-blending capabilities. On the National Triolian tenor I have a custom "Cone Tone" pickup embedded in a biscuit bridge, designed by Elderly and installed by my local shop. The MAP33 has 3 switchable channels, so it's good for a multi-instrumentalist.

[Santiago]

BG Purists will have one mic and crowd the band around it. Rockers will closely mike their amplifier's and put that though the PA, and there are a million flavors in-between. Find someone with hour basic style and sound and ensemble, and see what they do. There's just a lot of variables.

[Treblemaker]

I do this several ways.

When I play with a LOUD band it's best to simply plug straight into an Amp - but it helps if the amp has headroom.

My amp of choice is Mesa Boogie Mark III which has more than enough power and doesnt' really require any preamp.

I own a couple of LR Baggs PADI's - and they are decent. (I am selling one for $100 if anyone is interested.)

I recently obtained a Radial PZ Pre and IMHO find it far more flexible, easier to use, and gets better tone than the LR Baggs PADI.

When I play in small amplified group contexts I plug the PZ PRE into the board via a Mic Cable.

When I play straight up Bluegrass Music it's either via SM57s and 58s or a good quality LDCondensor Mic.

My pickup of choice is a Schertler Dyn-M.

I've managed to obtain most of this stuff by carefully perusing my local SF Bay Area Craigslist.
I've managed to get the Schertler at more than half off list and the PZ PRE for a Benny Less than the going rate.
Deals are out there if you look hard enough.

-Treblemaker

[RobP]

I had a Rigel for many years, and used the Rigel pick-up through a SansAmp pre-amp. Worked pretty well.

Then I got a Breedlove, and did the same thing with the Schertler. Worked great.

Then I got the Weber. No pickup. I decided to try just using an SM57 mic instead of installing a pickup, and it worked suprisingly well. We had an extra mic, so it was a low-cost solution. The main disadvantage is that there is less freedom of motion when you aren't singing -- you have to stay near the mic.

Cheers,

Rob

[Pete Martin]

I always like a mic sound best. My go to mic is a Shure KSM 141.

When I need more juce than that, Shertler Dyn M into a Shertler unico amp. If possible use with a mic.

For straight ahead Jazz I use my Mann EM4 (electric mando) into a Fender amp, usually a Twin Reverb.

[mandobassman]

I decided to try just using an SM57 mic instead of installing a pickup, and it worked suprisingly well....The main disadvantage is that there is less freedom of motion when you aren't singing -- you have to stay near the mic.

I have always hated the sound of pickups and, therefore, never use one. That's why I simply play into the band's main large condenser vocal mic (MXL 990). I can stand a foot away or 3 feet away and there is not much difference in volume, and I have the freedom to move around and not be "locked" in one position. Of course that set up depends on the other instrumentation, mic set up, and stage volume. Plus, you don't get the boomy bass you get from the mic being too close to the F hole.

[journeybear]

I have a 1917 Gibson A oval hole and a Fishman 100 bridge that is wired to a 1/4 tailpin jack. I put the signal through a 7-band gain/EQ (gain all the way up, bass and treble all the way up, mids a couple notches below flat, the classic smile with a bit of saturation), a Korg multi-effector for reverb (provides sustain and, well, dreaminess), and Morley Volume Wah with the gain knob around 7-8, into a PA with gain about 5 and level about 3. In a way I am compensating for the currently down Yamaha Rex50 multi-effector: its combination distortion/reverb produced just the right fattening and sustain I liked and was my sound for over twenty years. It took a bit of tweaking to get this current setup to where I am pretty happy with it. It accommodates both the acoustic Gibson and the electric MandoBird with slight adjustments. For acoustic songs I leave the wah in its dwell positon, at the treble end (fittingly, considering the instrument's frequency range), and it sounds fine, a little more meaty than a straight signal. For more rocking numbers I put the Morley's gain all the way up and trim the level on the PA a bit to keep the volume about the same relative to the other instruments. I should really be using an amp, but it's a bit much to schlep that on my bike. I may yet talk myself into it, though. My sound isn't all it could be.

[Tim2723]

Right now I'm playing a Michael Kelly mandolin with a Fishman pickup. It does the job, but sometimes I think I lose the acoustic qualities of the mandolin and it sounds a little metallic. However, I'm not sure whether to blame my mandolin or the pickups.

Hi J.D.

You can actually blame both. I have two Micheal Kelly acoustic electric mandolins, and what you're hearing is just what they often sound like. The Fishman System One that's built into them has a couple of issues.

First, they are not piezoelectric bridge pickups. These are simply a short length of coaxial cable under the bridge saddle that responds microphonically to the strings. Also, the internal preamplifier is not perfectly matched to the impedance of 'pickup' element. (Again, it's not really a pickup the way we usually think of them.)

Second, the mandolin itself is a very heavily built instrument with an unusually thick, heavy finish of the sort most performers dislike and Bluegrass players outright hate. Much of the 'tinny' sound is likely to be too much treble, plain and simple.

I find that I have to run the on-board volume slider all the way up to help the first problem, and adjust the on-board EQ as follows to help the second problem:

Bass = +12 (full boost)
Mid = Flat (zero detente)
Treble = -12 (full cut)

Putting a mic or a different pickup on the mandolin will improve things somewhat, but there's a fundamental flaw in the logic. Acoustic electric mandolins have great big whopping holes chopped into them for the controls and such, and that little mandolin-sized sound chamber is crammed full of electronics. That makes their acoustic properties marginal at best. Acoustic electric mandolins are made to be amplified by their pickups, not to play acoustically. An acoustic electric guitar can be the best of both worlds, but not mandolins, so if you try to amplify their acoustic sound with a microphone you still end up with less than you expect.

If you really need the advantages of an acoustic electric mandolin (and honestly, most people who buy them don't) then I heartily recommend looking at a different, better quality acoustic electric like the Godin A-8 or the Ovation MM-68.

All our friends are giving their best, most sincere advice on how they get their best sound, and it's really good advice from really experienced people. But it doesn't apply to Michael Kelly instruments because they are different from the start. Having struggled with two Michal Kelly acoustic electrics for three years I can't recommend you waste any more effort or money to fix it. Save that cash to get the sound you really want.

[Tim2723]

But to answer your original question directly, personally I play an Ovation MM-68 through a Bose sound system. Are these the top choices for all mandolinists? No, but they're the best for my needs, and that's what you have to shoot for: What is best for you and your requirements today. If for some reason I was earning my living playing Italian folk songs tomorrow, those would be in the dumpster and I'd have the optimum tools for the new job.

[almeriastrings]

First, they are not piezoelectric bridge pickups. These are simply a short length of coaxial cable under the bridge saddle that responds microphonically to the strings. .

Not actually so. They are a flexible piezo element, surrounded by shielding. These are used in various instruments, including guitars. Quite common. This is one by LR Baggs:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electron...ctures#details

It might look like nothing but cable, but there really is a piezo element in there.

[Tim2723]

Sorry, but I must beg to differ. I've had mine apart several times and there's no resemblance whatsoever to the one you reference. Perhaps there are different versions and what you've shown is used somewhere, but mine are certainly not piezo elements, just a bit of coax with the outside stripped off. There's no shielding, just bare wire. You can even see the knife marks from the wire stripper. However, the OP's particular instrument may be as you say. Nonetheless, while my description may be flawed, I'm sure we'll agree that the Fishman System One is far from the most advanced design available. Certainly nothing as good as the Baggs. When it comes to selecting an AE mandolin, we can do much better than the MKs for not much more money.

[journeybear]

OK, but a Michael Kelly is what he has, so unless you think he should just start all over from scratch, let's see what people can suggest to best accommodate this instrument's characteristics. You've already addressed some of the issues with them, which should serve as a good starting point. I have no experience with them so I'm going to butt out now. Good luck, J.D.!

[Jim]

The question is what are you competing with for volume, I uses an acoustic electric plugged into a D/I and to the board and/or acoustic instrument amp when I am playing with electric instrumnts with amps on stage and maybe miked drums. This is my least favorite way to play but will work. An sm 57 at about 6 to 8 inches sounds WAY better. Sometimes I will use both and blend signals which is complicated but gives a more acoustic sound and leaves the piezo to reinforce the signal. I really like the dynamic control you have with moving closer or farther from the mic.

[Tim2723]

OK, but a Michael Kelly is what he has, so unless you think he should just start all over from scratch, let's see what people can suggest to best accommodate this instrument's characteristics. You've already addressed some of the issues with them, which should serve as a good starting point. I have no experience with them so I'm going to butt out now. Good luck, J.D.!

Well JB, I hope my post didn't come across as bossy or know-it-all, but starting from scratch actually is just what I am suggesting. Trying to make an MK acoustic electric better is going to be limited. Adding an external mic or another pickup could prove both disappointing and costly. Selling it as is and investing the rest in a more appropriate model could be the way to go, assuming that an AE is the best solution in the first place. I'm not insisting that anyone do what I suggest of course, but having used them I have to offer my honest opinion. It is, of course, just that and worth every penny it cost.