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Thread: Do most pro players play lightly?

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    Default Do most pro players play lightly?

    It's hard to tell from hearing a pro playing over a microphone if they have a light touch or not. I have never had the chance to hear a pro off of a mic. So I am wondering if they were not on a mic, can they be heard in an open jam? I know a local guitar player who can never be heard in a jam, but over a mic his playing is perfect..clean, fast, good tone. I suspect that the great players have a light touch on the mando, but I am not sure. I do know that when I am practicing and I pick lightly, I get better tone and play cleaner, but when I am in a jam I have to play louder and my right arm stiffens up and I end up banging on the strings...sounds terrible!

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    Registered User aphillips's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I have no answer for you but thank you! Good food for thought.
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    Registered User Ray Neuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I have only heard one "pro" in person, and yes, he had an exceptionaly light touch, but it was magic. I know from MY mandolin, the quality of sound is very different with a different magnatude of attack. For somethings, agressive attack produces a very different emotion then a light happy touch.

    But then again, what do I know, I play a lot of blues! LOL
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I think that heavy or light affects tone. The pros I have heard have great tone, and for the most part play on the heavier side. I found I get the best tone playing as if to play loud, so I play that way most of the time.

    I would say I play about 75% as loud as I can all the time, leaving 25% on either side for dynamics and expressiveness.


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    Registered User Cheryl Watson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I have heard Mike Compton play in person several times, with no mic, and he can play VERY loud but he has great dynamics and also uses his picking hand from close to the bridge to quite far up the neck to change the tone.

    I don't know for certain, but I would guess that the notey players who play very fast play at a good strong level of volume but not very loud because the more force with the picking hand, the more force you need with the fretting hand because the strings are moving harder and that can slow you down.

    Adam Steffey can get quite loud and what he does is plant his pinky, sometimes two of his picking hand fingers and pivots which I suspect is part of the way he gets so much power. He has also developed a perfect timing/coordination between his hands which allows much more clarity, solidness, and volume.

    Obviously, Monroe-style is so much easier to get more volume because you often use more strings and also because of the technique used to play that style.

    Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

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    Registered User Chip Booth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I will say that most all of the players who's styles I prefer (non traditional, more modern alternative acoustic such as Thile, Marshal, guitarists like Ross Martin from the Matt Flinner Trio), and have met in person play fairly lightly.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Booth View Post
    I will say that most all of the players who's styles I prefer (non traditional, more modern alternative acoustic such as Thile, Marshal, guitarists like Ross Martin from the Matt Flinner Trio), and have met in person play fairly lightly.
    ...and the ones who's tone really float my boat (Sam, Mr. Bill, and the Dawg, for instance), are just bangin' it....

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Funy more older players seem to dig harder and more younger players seem to play light, sometimes VERY light. I have a feeling the differences in PA systems of their eras lead a lot to this.

    I love to hear the full woody tone from the instrument (Spruces favs are my favs).
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Martin View Post
    I have a feeling the differences in PA systems of their eras lead a lot to this.
    I love to hear the full woody tone from the instrument.
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I think hearing the difference may come easier with practice, but, after the third decade or so, many things become vague.
    Thile & many younger players do,indeed sound light of touch, but so did Jethro & Dave Apollon( though they could certainly drive the instrument when appropriate). Monroe & Compton have generally a harder picking sound, but can be extremely light when appropriate.
    I still hear many who sound either way, but, in general, the best do both well.
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoSquirrel View Post
    in general, the best do both well.

    There it is
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    It often seems to me that picking the mandolin harder doesn't necessarily make it sound louder. Striking the strings cleanly, with confidence and coordination, and well tuned, you can get a lot of sound out of the little box with less effort.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    agreed - less is more - a "banjo killer" does not go gentle into that good ear

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Booth View Post
    I will say that most all of the players who's styles I prefer (non traditional, more modern alternative acoustic such as Thile, Marshal, guitarists like Ross Martin from the Matt Flinner Trio), and have met in person play fairly lightly.
    Boy I don't know. I don't hear either Thile or Marshal as playing lightly. Sure its not all to the wall all the time, but they play pretty hard even on fast passages. I don't hear a light touch.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Thile has a light touch when he wants to - but playing with Michael Daves he whipped that mandolin.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Playing loudly can be practised, eventually resulting in the same muscle economics as with soft playing.
    Thus, you can output a hard bang without sweating, looking as light as ever you wish. As long as your instrument can handle the power without buzzing, the hard bang can still sound clean.

    The trick is to make the pick hit the string with higher speed, not higher force (I think there may be similar recipes in martial arts, employing bricks instead of mandolins).
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I think it's fair to say that Chris Thile is a moving target on this score. His playing has evolved and keeps evolving, and I'm sure his advice today would be different than what he said on his Homespun instructional tape (yes, VHS tape!) more than a decade ago. I've heard that the set up in his Dudenbostel days was so low that there was a lot of fret slap if played hard enough to be clearly heard in an acoustic jam. Now the Loar is set up with a medium action, easy to play but not super-low. CT seems to agree that there is an inevitable trade off between low-action and light touch for maximum speed on the one hand -- and volume and greater dynamic range and perhaps different tone that comes from a higher action, and a heavier right hand. He still gets around the fretboard plenty fast, but he does see it as a trade off. At least that's the impression I have from talking with him on the subject.
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by BradKlein View Post
    I've heard that the set up in his Dudenbostel days was so low that there was a lot of fret slap if played hard enough to be clearly heard in an acoustic jam.
    So true. I played that mandolin one time and immediately buzzed the G string with my neanderthal touch.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    If Thile had a light touch on his Dudenbostel, did he have a pickup in it of some kind? With a low action I would think he had to have a pickup of some kind in it. Regarding the string height, at a Steve Kaufman seminar he mentioned that Tony Rice put his D28 in his hands to play one time and Steve buzzed all the strings with his technique. Steve hits his pick about 1/4 inch into the pick last I heard him say. Tonys guitar was set up like a steel guitar for Tony, way too low for Steve. And we all know Tony gets great tone and volume from that same guitar. That made me think that a pro mando player may also have a lower action, as they most likely play over a mic most of the time performing, not alot of parking lot picking anymore where they have to have alot of volume that the soundman usually provides. Most probably sit in the bus in the AC, in a small room, with their band who is considerate of the various instruments, getting quieter when others are taking a lead. Unlike a jam where most don't get quieter if a quieter instrument is taking a lead. So I guess I will work towards a lighter touch, currently I am kind of ham-fisted hitting the strings because I am always trying to get more volume. If I pick too light tho, I can really hear that pick hit the strings, so I guess there has to be some balance there too, between pick noise and string volume.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    I think the question is badly worded.

    To play loudly all the time is meaningless because there is no where else to go... Likewise playing softly all the time.

    The arts, all of them are based on variation, subtle or not so subtle. Volume being one variable..

    As a general rule, playing loudly all the time or softly all the time is a perscription for boredom.
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmando View Post
    If Thile had a light touch on his Dudenbostel, did he have a pickup in it of some kind? With a low action I would think he had to have a pickup of some kind in it. Regarding the string height, at a Steve Kaufman seminar he mentioned that Tony Rice put his D28 in his hands to play one time and Steve buzzed all the strings with his technique. Steve hits his pick about 1/4 inch into the pick last I heard him say. Tonys guitar was set up like a steel guitar for Tony, way too low for Steve. And we all know Tony gets great tone and volume from that same guitar. That made me think that a pro mando player may also have a lower action, as they most likely play over a mic most of the time performing, not alot of parking lot picking anymore where they have to have alot of volume that the soundman usually provides. Most probably sit in the bus in the AC, in a small room, with their band who is considerate of the various instruments, getting quieter when others are taking a lead. Unlike a jam where most don't get quieter if a quieter instrument is taking a lead. So I guess I will work towards a lighter touch, currently I am kind of ham-fisted hitting the strings because I am always trying to get more volume. If I pick too light tho, I can really hear that pick hit the strings, so I guess there has to be some balance there too, between pick noise and string volume.
    I don't normally quote a whole post, but this pretty much says it all, especially the part about other pickers quieting down. Many times, have to hush pickers down, not only when I take a solo, but when others - dobro, guitar - take their break. And many times when this is done, the tune loses its drive. Folks need to realize: volume and speed <> drive.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    As JeffD stated, I'm pretty sure any pro player can probably do either. But what they gravitate to on a general basis? That's a different story. Of the pros I've watched and come in close contact with, I've noticed:

    Sierra Hull uses a light touch mostly I think. Although I know she jammed a lot when she was younger, so I'm sure she could still belt out if needed. On stage it was pretty obvious she was doing the low action/close mic thing I'd say makes a more "modern" sound.

    Shawn Lane mentioned that he doesn't play in jams much at all, so to him volume isn't an issue, just how it sounds on a mic. I still think he plays a little heavier then Sierra, but not as heavy as a banjo killer like Sam Bush. To him the end all goal is tone.

    Ashby Frank - likes his action high and definitely drives the mandolin. Plays fast too, basically I think he's just an animal.

    Jesse Cobb - Seeing as he's a big fan of Sam Bush, it's probably no surprise he's in the higher action/heavy camp. He's commented that he's always got to be careful about over driving his axe.

    Chris Thile - I think Brad pretty much nailed it. I hold him responsible for starting the whole super low action thing (not in a bad way) and yet now days I think he's really seeing the advantages in tone and dynamics that come from a more meaty setup.

    An interesting question and one I'm always thinking about. Personally, my theory is that if you have a good setup you can raise the action a decent amount and still have it play easy. When I first got my mandolin I showed it to Jesse Cobb, who played it and said the action was kind of low for him. I agreed (even though at the time I was listening to a lot of technical low-action era thile) and took it too my luthier. We got it dailed in real good now, and I had Jesse (and ashby frank and a load of other good but non pro players) try it out a couple months ago. The action is significantly higher, but the first reaction out of most people's mouths is always "wow this thing plays real nice!" And the notes don't "wimp out" on the high end when you really get on it... I think I done nailed it!
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justus True Waldron View Post
    Chris Thile - I think Brad pretty much nailed it. I hold him responsible for starting the whole super low action thing (not in a bad way) and yet now days I think he's really seeing the advantages in tone and dynamics that come from a more meaty setup.
    Uh, Jethro and Jesse (to name just 2) pushed for low action when CT was just a gleam in his father's eye.

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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    People, people, people... It's called dynamics.
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    Registered User Justus True Waldron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do most pro players play lightly?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanN View Post
    Uh, Jethro and Jesse (to name just 2) pushed for low action when CT was just a gleam in his father's eye.
    Ok, I'll admit to not being all that familiar with Jethro and Jesse, but I suppose I should clarify my statement. What I meant by the "super low action thing" was more the super ultra clean, very precise and with a very light touch. Any of the listening to Jethro I have done, you can tell it's low action, and you can certainly tell it's a lot cleaner than say Mr. Monroe, but there is still some of that "thunky thunk" that I believe comes from a right hand that's slightly "lazy" (in the words of Mike Compton). While admittedly the right hand has nothing to do with action, that "clean" sound is what I was crediting CT with making popular, if not starting it. I am also familiar with Mark O'conner's early mandolin playing that both pre-dated and inspired Chris. The OP's question was regarding a "light touch" and not necessarily low action. As for dynamics, they are pretty much universally needed for good interesting music. It does get harder to really pull them off with light action though, because in my experience you lose headroom before the notes start to "peter out" at high amplitude. Hence the "trade off" CT talks about, and made very apparent at the punch brothers show I saw. There are a lot of younger Thile inspired players however that still have a very low action and can play extremely well, but in my opinion have tones lacking both "meat" and dynamics. On the other side of the spectrum, people that are CONSTANTLY overdriving their instruments don't have much headroom left either, but they do have a richer, almost compressed tone. Like I said, interesting food for thought this.
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