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Thread: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

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    Registered User mommythrice's Avatar
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    Default Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    We're just now needing our own PA. I have found a this used:
    Yamaha mixer EMX512SC with two Yamaha BR-15's.
    Will this work? I need something simple (ie. idiot-proof). We like to use a single mic AT2050 with maybe a Shure 58 off to the side for instrument leads and another one dropped into the bass tailpiece. I have the mics already. We've watched friends play with a similar set-up (but I have no idea of the brands or models) and it sounded great. They did use a separate bass amp, but I don't know why.

    I went to Guitar Center awhile back to get some ideas, and they only want to sell powered speakers, but I can't find any BG bands around here that use them. They all use passive.

    So, will that work to get us started? Do I need a bass amp? Anything else I'm not thinking of?

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    garded
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    I think you'll find just about anything will work. But there is no such thing as idiot-proof.

    And the brands/models have everything to do with the sound. You could say a powered head(which that's what the EMX512C is) is a powered head, because they all look the same from a distance. But not so. And speakers look a lot alike, but unless you know what the drivers are(tech talk for the speakers in the box) you won't know if it's going to be in the ballpark of what you are looking for.

    That particular speaker is a horn( hi freq driver) and a 15" speaker. So it's going to be able to cover the hi end, and big bass. Most of what an acoustic band does falls in the mid range and IMHO, that's where this speaker is weak. You certainly won't need a bass amp, as these speakers will be able to handle it fine.

    I think Yamaha is great stuff, and I like the sound of them. But we started off with just this head, and some smaller speakers and with condenser mic's like the 2050 it was close to impossible to get loud without feedback. It also had issues with the phantom power not being able to power certain mic's. But if you stick to all dynamic's(like 58, I'd personally rather use a 57 instead) for vocals and instruments, you'll have more of a fighting chance, but you'll probably always feel squeezed for enough channels, as that head only has 4 mic ch.

    It being used, maybe they would let you set it up and try it out? I'd not buy it no matter how good a deal without first testing it out. And if it works for you, go for it.

    Most of the bluegrass bands around here use powered speakers, and a passive mixer. More quality, flexibility, but a little more complicated.

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    Registered User mommythrice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    [QUOTE=TonyP;1047645
    That particular speaker is a horn( hi freq driver) and a 15" speaker. So it's going to be able to cover the hi end, and big bass. Most of what an acoustic band does falls in the mid range and IMHO, that's where this speaker is weak.
    [/QUOTE]

    Don't most speakers have a horn and a bigger speaker? So is it just this Yamaha that is weak in the mid range?

    And I don't want to stick with dynamic's. We're a family band - used to singing in each others faces - and really like gathering around a single mic.

    I wasn't planning on any monitors... Could that be where your feedback was coming from, or is there another problem I need to watch for?

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    its a very very long song Jim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    I like powered mixers, less stuff to plug in and I use different speakers for different venues. I think bass sounds OK through most of them though many bass player would disagree and feel they need their own amp. I have a 700 w Peavy with fx which I seldom use but it also has phantom power so I can use it with condenser mics. It can send all 700 watts out front or send 350 to the front and the other 350 as a monitor or you have separate monitor outputs to run a monitor amp & speakers. I know you do the one mic thing which the peavy does well but this would give the flexibility of using dynamic mics close and a monitor if needed. 15" speakers with a horn are nice but big & heavy and 12" will do in most situations, I have a selection from 15", 12" and 10" and if I had to have only one set it would be the 12" speakers. I like the Yamaha stuff & powered speakers are nice but heavy, Peavy, Yamaha and several others all work fine.
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    We used to use a powered mixer with passive speakers, but since we switched to powered speakers, I wouldn't trade back. Nice simple mixer, no worries about overdriving the speakers, better sound quality (Well, the old boxes were pretty cheap.). The powered ones are 12 inches and do well for most situations. Get a mixer with more inputs than you'll ever need, and you'll see how quickly you need more. :-)

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    Registered User mommythrice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    For powered speakers I have found: 2 JBL EON 15G2 Powered Speakers and a Mackie Mixer 1402VLZ-PRO. It's a little more expensive than the other option. Any ideas about how the sound will compare? I was concerned that a mixer w/o power wouldn't supply phantom power, but it will, right? Are powered speakers heavier? No one seems to be selling decent 12" speakers.

    Jim, you're right. I want the option to use all dynamics & a monitor for whatever reason - wind, noisy venue, misc feedback problems... But wouldn't either system give me that option?

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mommythrice View Post
    Are powered speakers heavier?
    With modern digital amps, powered speakers are only a little bit heavier than a passive counterpart, since most of the weight is in the low/mid speaker and the cabinet. Powered speakers sound much better to my ears than any passive speaker until you get up into very large (and expensive) touring systems, because they're internally bi-amped with digital crossover and EQ, compared to very basic single amp output with a powered mixer.

    No one seems to be selling decent 12" speakers.
    The 12" size is actually the most popular size for powered speakers, with many options to choose from. On the low end, take a look at the Peavey 12D. For better quality and sound, I'd recommend either the QSC K12 or the JBL PRX612M, at 41 lbs. and 35 lbs. respectively. The QSC K series has a six year warranty.

    I use a pair of the smaller 10" QSC K10 speakers for the duo and trio I play in, and the sound is very good. We don't have a bass in the group, and if we did, I'd probably move up to the 12" size. That should be enough for an acoustic double bass unless you're playing very large rooms. I think 15" speakers are usually overkill unless you're a rock band that needs kick drum support, or low synth DJ music. They just don't offer much improvement over a high-quality powered 12" size for the extra size, weight, and cost. If you really need more bottom end than a 12" speaker can deliver, then you should probably be thinking about adding a powered sub.

    On the mixer side, I'm a fan of Soundcraft and Allen & Heath compact 8-channel mixers. I use the Soundcraft MFXi8 for the trio, and a smaller Allen & Heath Zed10FX for the duo. I've also used the more compact SOundcraft EFX8, which is a good bang for the buck in 8 channels.

    I don't recommend Behringer, Phonic, or Mackie PA gear due to iffy build quality and reputation (personal opinion, others may vary). If you're on a tight budget, I think Peavey probably has the best current offerings in passive mixers and inexpensive powered speakers.

    You could start with just a pair of powered main speakers, and then see if you need monitors. Sometimes you can "cheat" the mains inward a little, so you can hear off the inward edge of the pattern. If you do need monitors and want to keep them on the small (and relatively inexpensive) side, I like the Electro-Voice ZXA1. We use those and they're great, although with a bass in the band you might need a 12" monitor.

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    Registered User mommythrice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mommythrice View Post
    No one seems to be selling decent 12" speakers.
    I meant "used" / on Craigslist. We're still playing for tips, so I can't spend a couple thousand dollars right now.

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    its a very very long song Jim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Yes you can run monitors with either system, with the peavey system I have you don't have to have a separate monitor amp.
    Jim Richmond

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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Take up some woodworking and the Raw speakers are cheap..
    the crossover not much, either
    Parts-express in Ohio has lots, and hardware to finish off the cabinets too.

    And tech staff to help you pick ..
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    My only 2 cents here is to double up on what Folded said about the mixer. I'd get the best you can, either Soundcraft or A&H (I use A&H) as the quality of the mic pre-amps are great, and you won't need any separate pre-amps for the mics. The flexibility is great, and sound quality excellent. I have used a couple of Yamaha boards as smaller back-ups, and am not impressed with them as I am the two previously mentioned. Yes, feedback would only occur with monitors, and with a really nice board, it's easier to eliminate that problem. If someone has a pickup or something that's really causing a feedback problem, which is very rare, we just stick a compressor on that channel, but we normally don't need it. And yes, I agree that for the bang for the buck, the powered speakers are the way to go. For a built-in situation, then you can think about separate power amps and unpowered speakers, but for dragging stuff around, powered sound better and are easier to deal with, even with the added weight.

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    Registered User mandobassman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    What you are showing is the exact same powered PA both of my bands have been using for the past 6 or 7 years. We love it. Easy to use. Lots of power. Reliable. I would highly recommend it.
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    the EMX512SC will provide 15V phantom power. the AT2050 has an input range of 11-52V. it should work, but it's cutting it close. maybe some of the other posters can more knowledgeably comment.

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    Registered User mommythrice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    What you are showing is the exact same powered PA both of my bands have been using for the past 6 or 7 years. We love it. Easy to use. Lots of power. Reliable. I would highly recommend it.

    Mandobassman - Is that the powered JBL's you're talking about?
    Last edited by mommythrice; Apr-30-2012 at 7:43pm.

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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    The Yamaha outfit you mention is certainly nicely designed and well built. That said, I am not a huge fan of 15" speakers for a number of reasons - one being that for smaller gigs they are a bit of a PIA the cart around and tend to sound a bit unbalanced (to my ears). I also, like others, prefer integrated bi-amped designs these days, especially now you have such light (weight) digital amps proving the power. Huge, wound transformers are thankfully a thing of the past for this application.

    I would also totally endorse A&H mixers. They are absolutely first class. Excellent preamps, beautiful EQ. Really, really hard to beat. You really have to look at stuff like Midas for anything that sounds as good - and that ain't cheap, though Soundcraft also do some nice units. Personally, having used a lot of mixers over the years, those are the only three I really rate.

    So, I would look for an A&H ZED (or PA) series desk depending on your needs, and a nice pair of powered 12" speakers. In addition to those Foldedpath lists (which are all good) I would also add the Yamaha MRS series as worth checking out, especially the MRS 250 if you really want something powerful sounding but very compact (it has a 10" driver) but still delivers a good low end. These are a very nice sounding speaker, and are ultra-reliable. If you are putting electric or acoustic bass through it though, I'd stick with a 12" design. Something along those lines would give you pretty much what you need I suspect, with no compromise on quality (or reliability).
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Same PA I have - it is super easy to use and sounds good - do it.

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    garded
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    I wasn't planning on any monitors... Could that be where your feedback was coming from, or is there another problem I need to watch for?
    We didn't use monitors. You don't need monitors to cause feedback. It's a function of the peaks of the input(mics) and the output(speakers) amplifying themselves. That's what feedback is. And yes, it gets worse with monitors.

    As to the speakers, yes there's a horn and a big speaker. But notice it can be anything from an 8"(around) to 10", to 12", to 15". Each one has a function because of it's mass. A 15" can handle way more bass than an 8", but can't react as quickly because of is large size/mass to cover the mid range. A 12" is more of a compromise as it can cover the kind of bass a bluegrass band would have, and can cover the mid's better. Quality of the driver has everything to do with what it can cover and sound good. When I think of a 15" it's what is used in bass amps.

    I'm a big fan of one mic for vocals especially, but while it may look simple it's way more prone to feedback because the single mic has to be a lot more sensitive to be able to pick up everything. So everything is a trade off. More 57/58's to mic everybody separately is more complicated in that you have more stands, mics, and channels to balance but is less prone to feedback. Compared to single mic, less channels but have to compromise the sound by using the small built in graphic eq to pull down the offending frequencies that are feeding back. A feedback buster like a dbx or Sabine would really help and are fairly easy to use once you get the idea how to work it.

    I noticed long ago when I only schlepped the equipment, and didn't run it, that there's a lot more than meets the eye. And once you get a certain rig dialed in it does get easy. But those folks would tell you no problem, easy as pie, but they have forgotten all the time spent messing with it and learning how to get it to function properly.

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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Mommythrice,

    I've stayed out of this thread so far only because I've never used the single-mic set up and know nothing about it. But If I read through your questions correctly I get this:

    You're a Bluegrass Partridge Family (how cool is THAT!)
    You have a very limited budget
    You know little about PA systems, BUT
    You have friends who use passive-speaker/powered-mixer set ups and you like that
    You own dynamic mics but would like to get condensers some day
    You're not crazy about monitors but not dead set against them

    Is that about right so far?

    I'm sure the others probably know more about you already from other posts, but I don't, so please forgive my ignorance.

    The reason Guitar Center is selling you powered speakers is because that's the thing today. Passive speakers are Old School. But that doesn't mean they won't work for you. 90% of those on this board used them for decades. Me too. They're simple and affordable.

    Out of deference to FoldedPath I won't mention the Bose system. It's way too expensive for you today.

    If I've got most of that right, I'd still recommend an 600-800 watt bi-powered mixer and a pair of 12" cabinets on tripods. You can add to it later if you need to. You can get one with phantom power for tomorrow's needs. Peavey is still making some very affordable stuff, and they can often be had in packages that save you some money. Because they're Old School you can get real bargains on used gear to get you started.

    More importantly, I'd go find those friends of yours and get their help. Find out what they use and copy it. Let them help you get it working. That's worth more than 100 pages of my advice.

    All just my opinion, of course. Good luck and success to your family!

    P.S. Go back and read that last paragraph from Tony P. again. It's golden. The last sentence should be on a plaque in the Smithsonian. If Moses played Bluegrass it would be in the Bible.
    Last edited by Tim2723; May-01-2012 at 9:51am.
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Oh, and while it's all been good advice, forget about 15" speakers. You don't have an electric bass pounding down the walls, you don't have kick drums, and you're not a DJ filling a dance hall. You have a bull fiddle with a mic on it. Good quality 12" speakers will do all you need. Very good quality 10" speakers will too, but they cost more.

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    Registered User mommythrice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    So, y'all are saying that there is a downside to 15" speakers - other than hauling them around? There are lots here for sale on Craigslist, so they will end up being cheaper than new 12" speakers. I just figured if a little is good, alot is better. Not so?

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Not so. There's a reason why so many 15" passive speakers are available on Craiglist. People are tired of lifting them, and they've found out what a good powered 12" speaker with a sub can do.

    Modern pop and rock music is a big factor here, since most of those speakers are probably being sold off by rock bands and DJ's. Pop music has become extremely bass-heavy in recent years. A 15" speaker is the quick and dirty way to get there, but even small bar bands and weekend DJ's quickly discover that you really need a sub or two, to pull of "that" sound. So subs are very popular now. And once you're using subs, there is no reason to haul around 15" main speakers. That's why they're being dumped.

    For acoustic music in particular, you're much better off with a smaller main driver with faster transient response, and a better crossover point between the low/mids and the highs.

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    Registered User Justus True Waldron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Quote Originally Posted by mommythrice View Post
    I just figured if a little is good, alot is better. Not so?
    Well the thing is, in this case the "alot" is bass, not just volume overall. There is a trade off (as someone else mentioned), Bigger speakers move more air, and thus can make more bass, but they are slower to respond, which makes the mid range go down. If you are just starting off I'd say go with whatever you can afford, because what other option is there? But if you have a choice, I would go for 12s over 15s and powered speakers over unpowered. However, that's not to say you CANT use 15s, I know bands that have used them, and personally I like to feel the bass a little bit in my bluegrass. However, most bands I know that have 15s also have a set of 12s for clarity, and since you're only getting one set, smaller is probably better.

    The main point I see for powered speakers is that they seem to have better clarity. The amp was specifically designed and EQed for the speakers, and only have to run the power a foot or so to the speakers, instead of 20 feet or so. For bluegrass and acoustic instruments in general, clarity is very important. Lots of cheap PAs I have used tend to "muffle" vocals, and make them less understandable. Not a good thing for acoustic music!

    Personally, I don't have any experience with those yamaha speakers. I have used the JBL EONs before, and found them to be decent, however the gold standard for smaller powered speakers is pretty much the Mackie SRM450s. I have loads of experience with them, and have found them to be reliable, loud enough for lots of settings, and most importantly very clear with a good midrange. Unfortunately, it's very hard to find them cheap, even used. I have seen them used with the one mic setup multiple times.. In fact, I almost ended up in a family band that used that same setup. But that's another story...
    If you can find them for a good price though, I'd recommend the Mackies. If not, a comparable set of the JBLs would probably do the trick, and I've heard good things about their stuff. I don't think it's quite as clear as the Mackies, but it is usually cheaper used.
    As for a mixing board, if you go one mic you can get away with something very small and likely inexpensive... even if you have one sm58 or two sm58s on the side you only need a board with a couple channels and phantom for the condenser. I'm pretty sure you can find that for around $100 NEW. Spend the rest of the money on good powered speakers.
    Bose Sticks - as someone else mentioned these are out of your price range. Even if they weren't... I'd vote STAY AWAY! I've had experience playing with several different models of them. They are light, easy to transport, loud enough... AND VERY VERY PRONE TO FEEDBACK! Not a good match for a condenser anything, especially not a one mic setup. I'm pretty sure these were designed for weddings and one man bands with a 58 for vocals and a plugged in guitar... for which they probably work well.

    Hope that was helpful! And good luck with the family band, they are the best... always the tightest vocals and funniest stage banter! I would know, I almost ended up in one...
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Well the one thing that's always certain is you'll run into lots of different opinions. But in this case I think most of us are trying to say to stay clear of 15" speakers for several good reasons. They might be very attractive to someone in your position, especially since there's some top name gear out there at bargain prices, but 15" cabs are not the optimum choice for you. Just trust us.

    Personally, I bought a pair of Audio Centron (a good brand) 15" cabinets with 8" mids and horns. They were destroyed in a flood. I never replaced them because I never missed them.

    15" drivers often don't produce clear vocals, that's true. But I've also noticed that a lot of folks who chase microphones and PA systems to achieve clear vocals actually need elocution lessons. If the audience can't understand you without a microphone, they won't with one. Technology will never replace musicianship.
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    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    Another vote for avoiding the 15" speakers--not a great sound for acoustic music and too dang heavy and big to handle without a hassle.

    Scholars differ, of course, but the most idiot-proof and acoustic-friendly setup I've had is a pair of Mackie C300z (passive version of the SRM450) and a powered Mackie PM608 amp/pre/mixer with eight XLR inputs. My experience with Mackie has been that everything is super reliable and I get regular compliments about how great the system sounds great with a wide range of acoustic instruments--mandolin, guitar, bass, fiddle, harp, banjo, etc. I usually use dynamic mics with it on most instruments (57s) and vocals (58s), but it's done fine with clip-on condensers and C-1000s, too.

    The 12" cabinets seem to handle almost everything we throw at them just fine. I agree that there is a little more finesse with powered speakers, but the added weight is just a little too much for my antique spine to lift onto the stands.

    We typically run the bass through a separate dedicated acoustic-savvy combo amp (Acoustic Image or similar) with a line into the mixer for some added oomph.

    If you keep it simple enough and understand the limits of your system, you can get great sound from a huge array of approaches and price points. The problems arise when you try to push beyond the limits of the weakest link in your system.

    Good luck.
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  25. #25
    garded
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    Default Re: Ready to take the plunge on a PA - will this work?

    If the audience can't understand you without a microphone, they won't with one.
    LOL!!!! ain't THAT the truth, amen brother Tim.

    If you keep it simple enough and understand the limits of your system, you can get great sound from a huge array of approaches and price points. The problems arise when you try to push beyond the limits of the weakest link in your system.
    And there folks is truly the crux of the biscuit.

    It's what I said at the beginning, there's a lot of ways to do this. And like a previous post said, why not go to the friends band and have them show you their stuff? And maybe they'll even let you guys try it out. It would certainly be far more hands on, which for me works the best and has a chance to sink in.

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