Do most pro players play lightly?

**Rob Fowler** · Apr-25-2012, 3:27pm

Reading about this topic made me think of this video of Jethro from the Adler house from 1985. Check it out and listen to the volume that comes out from his F5L he's playing and compare it to the volume that's coming out of Don Steirnbergs' Monty. Big difference and you can see how Jethro's right hand moves in similar way to Monroe's.

Maybe Don S. can comment more on Jethro's approach to producing so much volume from his instrument?

**BradKlein** · Apr-26-2012, 8:45am

That's an amazing video Rob. I don't know what it says about technique, but boy, I wish I'd been there. I'm sure it sounded much different sitting in the room, compared to the audio that was captured. But still...

Jethro: "That's what prosperity does. You have more than one pick... you get confused."

**Dobe** · Apr-26-2012, 9:33am

Didn't need a Toneguard either ! I'd say play how you like. If you want to emulate someone, then do it. Mando's need to be pushed a little. ' Lovingly spanked' , if you will.

**Paul Cowham** · Apr-26-2012, 10:10am

I certainly used to think that volume and speed whilst not necessarily mutually exclusive were at least difficult to combine and I still think this to a degree.

Last November though, I went to Eurpean mandolin event in Germany, Mike Marshall and Don Stiernberg were both teaching there (as was Caterina Lichtenberg), and I can certainly vouch that they can all (and do) play loudly and at speed. Mike played a choro piece with Caterina with a full backing band of guitars/mandolins/mandolas etc (I was playing guitar) at a concert on the last evening, and he could easily be heard above this.

I had a lesson with him and he was trying to explain to me that the volume control is how tightly the pick is gripped with the thumb and that is his method of adjusting volume. I hope I explained this right and am not misrepresenting him, anyhow I can't say that I've managed to emulate his technique (although the lesson has helped me), but one of the things that I certainly took away from this is that the mandolin can and should (sometimes) be played loudly.

I know that volume and playing heavily aren't the same thing but to play loudly I don't think you can play too lightly.

**JeffD** · Apr-26-2012, 10:53am

Just to clarify, playing lightly is not the same as playing too lightly. What I mean is there is a lightness of playing that can be interpreted as timidity, tentativeness, a cry of "don't listen to me that hard". We are not talking about that.

Whether it is timidity, or just sounds like it, you have to be louder and stronger than that. One should always play with with a volume and strength that says, at a minimum: "hey, you, listen to this". Above that there is a dynamic range to explore, but below that it just sounds like you don't mean it.

**Chip Booth** · Apr-26-2012, 11:16am

Fantastic video Rob, thanks for posting that!

**Dobe** · Apr-26-2012, 11:57am

Originally Posted by Chip Booth

Fantastic video Rob, thanks for posting that!

Ditto ! I also notice how Jethro gets no pick noise off his 'Florida'. I don't have that kind of control. I scoop them suckers & still get the occasional 'click'. Guess I'm just sloppier of right hand than Jethro was ! ?

**mandopete** · Apr-26-2012, 4:59pm

I don't know about the pro's, but this amateur thinks that video is fantastic!

5 Stars!

**Ivan Kelsall** · Apr-27-2012, 2:41am

I heard that Chris Thile once referred to his 'Dude.' action as a 'sissy' action due to it's being so low,& we've all heard about the 'manly action' used by a certain William Smith Monroe.I suppose that the string height that we choose as individuals, is in some ways determined by where we're playing ie. - if we only play for ourselves at home,then a low action with less volume might suit us.On the other hand, if we play live on stage with a band or we're simply jamming,then a higher action with the added volume would be required.
I think that the action on both my instruments is about 'medium'. It's 3/32" at the 12th fret on the G side (top of fret to underside of string) & a tad lower on the E side. Re.speed & action,again i suppose it's what we get used to over time. After a warm up i don't have too much trouble playing fast,but i don't really like to do it,it's too much of a 'trash' for me. As for playing loud,i use a lot of finger/thumb power to 'dig in' with the pick,i don't increase my wrist movement at all,
Ivan

**greg_tsam** · Apr-27-2012, 1:11pm

Originally Posted by Bertram Henze

The trick is to make the pick hit the string with higher speed, not higher force (I think there may be similar recipes in martial arts, employing bricks instead of mandolins).

You're talking about the difference between quick and fast as it refers to martial arts. Quick is explosive and sharp. They can be mutually exclusive of each other. A bus or a train can both travel fast on the but no one would call them quick.

**Nick Triesch** · Apr-27-2012, 2:15pm

I took a workshop with Mike Marshal a few years back in San Diego and he told us that he and most of the super players that he knows, get the very fast playing on record by playing very lightly. Then it is turned up in the studio to match the other instruments.

**Pipeous** · Apr-27-2012, 2:15pm

Well that was a fun video to check out. Jethro always has so much fun playing...

**Timmando** · Apr-27-2012, 4:02pm

Nick mentions "I took a workshop with Mike Marshal a few years back in San Diego and he told us that he and most of the super players that he knows, get the very fast playing on record by playing very lightly. Then it is turned up in the studio to match the other instruments."

That is what I am getting at with this post. When I listen to mando playing of say Cody Shuler, on a cd, it is clean, fast and I can hear some slight pick noise. That tells me he is close to the mic and playing lightly, but still with great tone. In an open jam, he probably does not play that quietly and then may lose some of the speed and accuracy.

Great input on this post...thanks everyone...I'm enjoying it and learning from it...

**pefjr** · Apr-27-2012, 7:18pm

They are pros,... they play what the music calls for. Piano and Forte' and ppp and fff on the sheet of music will tell you what level of volume the writer calls for. Most are not playing ppp for sure. I read where Jesse MacReynolds still can not read a note of music, but he must have great instinct as I have not noticed him being too loud or too ppp. In fact, I would guess all pros have that instinct.

**woodwizard** · Apr-27-2012, 8:04pm

That was an awesome video!

**Josh Kaplan** · Apr-27-2012, 8:49pm

I also play the trombone, and when I started taking lessons my teacher told me to play as loud as I could. That helped improve my playing more than anything else (except practice). Obviously I don't play as loud as I can all the time, but my teacher realized that I was playing too timidly and wasn't committing, and it affected my tone. He was always telling me to play out. My daughter's flute teacher told her to bounce the sound off the wall she was facing, for the same reason. It's probably the same with singing. Sometimes in my concert band, if there's a passage that is quiet, the director will have us play it fortissimo and then forte and then mezzo forte and then piano. The point is that even when you play quietly, you have to support the note with air. When we are tuning at the beginning of rehearsal, he will do the same thing--have us play the tuning note loud and then softer. He says, "Before you can tune, you have to tone."

I think something similar happens with the mandolin. At first, I played quietly and timidly. It is just difficult to get a good tone from the instrument, or play musically, when you do that. Tone is about commitment. Once you get that, it doesn't matter if you play loud or soft. I think this is one of the more difficult things about the mandolin; there is a knack to pulling the tone from the little instrument. I don't know why it's so difficult, but it is.

-Josh

**JeffD** · Apr-27-2012, 8:58pm

Originally Posted by Josh Kaplan

At first, I played quietly and timidly. It is just difficult to get a good tone from the instrument, or play musically, when you do that. Tone is about commitment. Once you get that, it doesn't matter if you play loud or soft.

Well said.

**SincereCorgi** · Apr-28-2012, 12:59am

Originally Posted by Timmando

When I listen to mando playing of say Cody Shuler, on a cd, it is clean, fast and I can hear some slight pick noise. That tells me he is close to the mic and playing lightly, but still with great tone. In an open jam, he probably does not play that quietly and then may lose some of the speed and accuracy.

Yeah, same with Matt Flinner– his attacks are pretty clicky, making me thing that he's playing at a comfortable volume and turned up in the mix for clarity. (This is not meant to imply anything negative, Matt Flinner is a total pimp and Music du Jour is the best mandolin CD of the last few years.)

**ralph johansson** · Apr-28-2012, 8:33am

Originally Posted by Rob Fowler

Reading about this topic made me think of this video of Jethro from the Adler house from 1985. Check it out and listen to the volume that comes out from his F5L he's playing and compare it to the volume that's coming out of Don Steirnbergs' Monty. Big difference and you can see how Jethro's right hand moves in similar way to Monroe's.

Maybe Don S. can comment more on Jethro's approach to producing so much volume from his instrument?

I wouldn't judge volume by listening to a recording. To me his sound is above all trebly and stringy, probably from the use of a thin pick.

**catmandu2** · Apr-28-2012, 9:00am

That is a great vid...vivid opportunity to observe their technique. Did most of the older guys use thin? Because nice phattys hadn't yet been mass produced? Just guessing..

**Bertram Henze** · Apr-29-2012, 1:01am

Originally Posted by catmandu2

Did most of the older guys use thin?

Thanks for classifying me as an older guy for my using 0.73

**Chip Booth** · Apr-30-2012, 9:16am

Originally Posted by SincereCorgi

Yeah, same with Matt Flinner– his attacks are pretty clicky, making me thing that he's playing at a comfortable volume and turned up in the mix for clarity. (This is not meant to imply anything negative, Matt Flinner is a total pimp and Music du Jour is the best mandolin CD of the last few years.)

That "click" in Matt's sound is just inherent to his instrument to some degree. I am not sure why, it has a ton of low end, is incredibly open and responsive, and it just makes that sound when you play it. I have played it and I made exactly the same clicky sound, and when Matt played my mandolin he did not click. I did notice less of it when the Trio played in my town this year than last year, so maybe Matt has found some technique to help reduce this a little bit.

**doc holiday** · Apr-30-2012, 9:24am

I saw Mike Marshall & Edgar Meyer this winter in the Margaret Greenham Theater (circa 265 seats) at the Banff Centre this february. It was a wonderful concert & they played entirely acoustically......no pickups...no mics. MM's Loar was regraduated & the tone bars changed to respond to his lighter touch. He does play lightly compared to say...Sam Bush.....but he plays with enough attack to be heard clearly.
The concert...due to the players & the entirely acoustic nature of the performance....was fantastic.

**Nick Quig** · Apr-30-2012, 9:29am

I believe Matt Flinner uses a Dunlop Jazztone 207 which would help with that "click" sound, which I like alot!

**Timmando** · Apr-30-2012, 3:51pm

Thanks for the intro to Matt Flinner...outstanding! From the videos I just saw of him at the radio station, he definitely has a light touch, at least in those videos. A friend gave me one of those dunlop 207 and I couldn't believe how thick it was. At that time I was using a guitar .83 dunlop. When I tried the 207 I couldn't get enough volume to be heard in the jam session so I went back to the thinner one. I will try the 207 and not worry about volume and see what happens recording into a mic.