Bone and ebony bridges

[Terry Allan Hall]

What is the advantage of a bridge w/ a bone saddle over an all-ebony or all-rosewood bridge, if any?

[Lefty Luthier]

Some think the look nice. Other than bone being a bit harder than ebony both will do the job. I have found no acoustic difference.

[Paul Hostetter]

Most people I know (myself included) have found a big difference, but it's not necessarily a bad thing—just different. People still like those old Gibson saddles that were made of aluminum.

[Bernie Daniel]

Were those Gibson Al bridges cast or carved with files?

[ourgang]

I had a fossilized ivory saddle on my Gibson A-5L and it seemed to take all the warmth from the tone. Switched to ebony and like it a lot better.

[Cheryl Watson]

Same for me as "ourgang" above. Just changing out the ebony saddle for a FI one killed the warmth, depth, and complexity of the tone. Ebony went right back on. I suspect that FI could work for a mandolin that needed more clarity in the notes.

[Charlieshafer]

yeah, the bone is brighter, crisper, maybe even harsher. I put bone on the mandocello and it actually worked great to get the notes to be more clear, on the mandolin it just shrieked.

[Paul Hostetter]

I rest my case.

Bernie, they look to be cast.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Thanks, all, this is pretty interesting!

May get one and try it on both of my mandolins, see if it improves things in either case, as I don't mind risking $20 or so....if not, I'll hang onto it, in case the mandocello I get will be improved by it.

Do like the looks, but the tone is the ultimate consideration.

[Bill Baldridge]

I bought my Gibson fern used and the original owner had replaced the ebony bridge with a FI bridge. it did look cool, but I thought the tone was harsh and sounded like plastic (whatever that sound is). I replaced it with with ebony and like the tone much better. I don't know how you will know without trying them both out. If you can get it done for $20, you must have someone to give you a bridge and plan on doing it yourself.

[Terry Allan Hall]

I bought my Gibson fern used and the original owner had replaced the ebony bridge with a FI bridge. it did look cool, but I thought the tone was harsh and sounded like plastic (whatever that sound is). I replaced it with with ebony and like the tone much better. I don't know how you will know without trying them both out. If you can get it done for $20, you must have someone to give you a bridge and plan on doing it yourself.

Found the bridge in the original post for $17 (Ebay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/360394709974...84.m1423.l2649), and, yes, I do all my own repairs and set-up work, as well as the repairs and set-up work for the two music stores in town.

[otterly2k]

I replaced the ebony saddle on my OM with bone b/c I wanted a crisper tone. It did help. Perhaps would be overkill on an already crisp sounding mando.

[Bernie Daniel]

I replaced the ebony saddle on my OM with bone b/c I wanted a crisper tone. It did help. Perhaps would be overkill on an already crisp sounding mando.

This is what I think also. A mandolin is already a naturally bright sounding instrument (compared to a mandocello or a guitar for example) and probably in most cases would not need the harder material for a bridge?

I also think your second point is right on. I have two mandocellos that have been created by converting a vintage jumbo arch top guitar -- one has a bone saddle with rosewood base and it is noticeably sharper and more crisp or "tangy" sounding than the one with an all-ebony bridge.

I like both sounds of both instruments and feel there is certainly a place for considering bone or aluminum on mandocellos and maybe octaves as well. The bone/rosewood bridge is my choice for a tune like "Glasgow Reel" (for example) while to play "Hector the Hero" I prefer the all-ebony bridge.

[pefjr]

Good thread. I have some questions that have never been answered.......logically, that is. Here is what I see on my mando. A 4 part bridge resting on spruce. On top is a thin bone, ivory or plastic.. (I don't know), resting on ebony or plastic(again I don't know which) resting on metal screws (maybe brass, maybe cheap metal), resting on ebony, which rest on the spruce top. I have not changed it because I like the tone. My observation is: there is no 'all' ebony adjustable bridge, is there?. They all have screws separating the ebony or rosewood pieces. So ........ if you have a fixed ebony bridge then you can make a judgement, but if you have an adjustable, the screws have to have an effect right? The screws effectively change any bone or ebony sound transference, is that right?

Bone is the preferred nut material, why not ebony? Again, Bone is the preferred bridge material on acoustic guitar. Maple is the preferred on Fiddle( except on electric fiddle it is ebony again). Plastic piano keys do not sound nearly as good as ivory and ebony.

While on this subject, I hear great tone improvements can be made with tail pieces, yet these same players use grommets to kill overtones. To me that is illogical.

[brmichaelpaul]

I play a brekke bridge with an ivory saddle, I think it makes all the difference in the world. I must admit though that my mandolin is quite a unique specimen with its cedar top and d-hole. For its price, I haven't played another mandolin that meets its dynamic range.http://www.youtube.com/user/brmichaelpaul?feature=mhee

[otterly2k]

Weber's Brekke bridge is essentially all ebony. The ebony saddle is a trapezoid-ish shape that is adjusted up/down with ebony wedges that come in from the side. There is a metal adjustment screw that moves the wedges, but the transmission of sound is ebony->ebony->ebony->top of the mando. Just FWIW in re: this conversation.

Also FWIW, I think one reason bone is preferred for nuts (and sometimes also for saddles) is the durability. If you've ever seen an old instrument with an ebony nut, the slots are often gouged out more than is ideal. I think the wood degrades more readily under the pressure and movement of the strings, not to mention time and conditions.

Whether or not cast tailpieces make a substantial difference, and why, has been fodder for many threads. Regardless, if there are unwanted overtones from the length of string between bridge and tp, the grommets (or leather strip or whatever) will satisfactorily mute those. TP's make a difference (if they do) not just because of those sympathetic vibrations.

[Paul Hostetter]

if you have a fixed ebony bridge then you can make a judgement, but if you have an adjustable, the screws have to have an effect right? The screws effectively change any bone or ebony sound transference, is that right?

Theoretically, yes, but in fact: maybe. Try changing a hundred or so mandolins from one to the other and compare and see how much difference it makes.

Bone is the preferred nut material, why not ebony?

It wears out too fast under wound strings.

Again, Bone is the preferred bridge material on acoustic guitar.

No, they're usually rosewood or ebony, with a small saddle of bone.

Maple is the preferred on Fiddle( except on electric fiddle it is ebony again).

Believe me, lots of other materials have been tried, and mostly found wanting. Even if wenge worked better, meaning it sounded better, it would be a real uphill battle getting players to accept it.

Plastic piano keys do not sound nearly as good as ivory and ebony.

Most pianists prefer ebony and ivory because of how the keys feel under their fingertips. Plastic keys also usually only come on cheap pianos.

While on this subject, I hear great tone improvements can be made with tail pieces, yet these same players use grommets to kill overtones. To me that is illogical.

The sympathetic vibrations of the string's afterlength is one thing, the contribution (or lack thereof) from the tailpiece itself is another issue.

[pefjr]

[QUOTE=Paul Hostetter;1046523]Thanks

No, they're usually rosewood or ebony, with a small saddle of bone.

True, I meant saddle material.

Most pianists prefer ebony and ivory because of how the keys feel under their fingertips. Plastic keys also usually only come on cheap pianos.

Wasn't ivory banned for a long time, and just recently the ban lifted for certain types of ivory?

A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to play and listen to a custom made walnut/red spruce top classical guitar. The tone was incredibly beautiful to me, like an old Dauphin Classical, and since that time I have been haunted by wanting to experiment with that wood and especially to play a walnut mando. Anyone have one that is walnut? I think tone comes from so many sources, and combinations of factors, it's probably just plain luck, when they all come together for that perfect pleasing sound.

[Pete Summers]

Most pianists prefer ebony and ivory because of how the keys feel under their fingertips. Plastic keys also usually only come on cheap pianos.

While players undoubtedly prefer the feel of real ivory, no modern piano maker that I am aware of now uses ivory for key tops -- even high dollar Steinways use plastic due to restrictions on the sale of ivory. Steinway and other top brands often use textured plastic to stimulate the feel of ivory, but most modern pianos use a shiny plastic similar to that used on digital keyboards

Sharps on top end grands are still generally made from ebony, but painted hard wood on lower priced models.

I doubt that the nature of the covering on piano keys has a noticeable impact on the piano tone, given the nature of piano construction.

As for mandolins, I changed out the ebony bridge on my antique Regal for rosewood without hearing an difference in tone. However, when I shortened the length of the rosewood bridge and drilled it out according to the recommendation at Frets.com, I did hear a significant volume increase.

[George R. Lane]

Weber's Brekke bridge is essentially all ebony. The ebony saddle is a trapezoid-ish shape that is adjusted up/down with ebony wedges that come in from the side. There is a metal adjustment screw that moves the wedges, but the transmission of sound is ebony->ebony->ebony->top of the mando. Just FWIW in re: this conversation.

There are two types of Brekke bridges. One is as you discribe and the other is a traditional style but, the saddle sits atop a brass bar that spans the screw posts. I had a FI saddle on my cedar topped Gallatin and it sound very nice. I have an ebony saddle on my Yellowstone.

[Paul Hostetter]

Wasn't ivory banned for a long time, and just recently the ban lifted for certain types of ivory?

No.

[Paul Hostetter]

I doubt that the nature of the covering on piano keys has a noticeable impact on the piano tone, given the nature of piano construction.

Of course not.

[TijnBerends]

Most people I know (myself included) have found a big difference, but it's not necessarily a bad thing—just different. People still like those old Gibson saddles that were made of aluminum.

Did they always come with laser strings? WANT!:D

[Terry Allan Hall]

While players undoubtedly prefer the feel of real ivory, no modern piano maker that I am aware of now uses ivory for key tops -- even high dollar Steinways use plastic due to restrictions on the sale of ivory. Steinway and other top brands often use textured plastic to stimulate the feel of ivory, but most modern pianos use a shiny plastic similar to that used on digital keyboards

Sharps on top end grands are still generally made from ebony, but painted hard wood on lower priced models.

I doubt that the nature of the covering on piano keys has a noticeable impact on the piano tone, given the nature of piano construction.

As for mandolins, I changed out the ebony bridge on my antique Regal for rosewood without hearing an difference in tone. However, when I shortened the length of the rosewood bridge and drilled it out according to the recommendation at Frets.com, I did hear a significant volume increase.

This is something I'm going to try, myself...

[pefjr]

As for mandolins, I changed out the ebony bridge on my antique Regal for rosewood without hearing an difference in tone. However, when I shortened the length of the rosewood bridge and drilled it out according to the recommendation at Frets.com, I did hear a significant volume increase.

Was that a fixed bridge? Did it effect the tone any? or just volume.

If, possible, I would like some clarification from those that use these descriptive words. Like:

warmth....... ?
crisp....does that mean less sustain, more clear?
depth... more sustain? more volume? both?
complexity of tone? ...how?

Paul, do you have an opinion on tail piece tone contribution with the grommets?