Right hand technique advice needed.

[Timmando]

I have a question...do most mandolin players picking hand do a contant up and down motion...all the time? Or are there different techniques where the right hand stops and starts, based on the melody? When I watch Sam Bush or Chris Thile, it seems that their right hand motion is a constant up and down...and it works for them so I guess I should be practicing that way also? Right now, I stop and start the up and down so I hit only one note instead of a doing a tremolo when the music stays on that note for a bit longer. But if I did a constant up and down, maybe I shouldn't hit the string many times, only once, but still keep the up and down motion going with my right hand?

In other words, do mandolin players NOT hit strings somtimes, even though the picking hand is going up and down contantly?

[Chip Booth]

You are correct, motion continues without hitting the strings. I think the best approach is to generally keep the right moving in a consistent up/down pattern regardless of what is being played (as much as possible). As you mentioned, most all of the best flatpickers on every instrument do this. I have seen many pro players keep hand motion going even during very long pauses. First in my mind is Chris Eldridge of the Punch Brothers and Barry Bales the bass player for Union Station, who both do an amazing "wind up" with the right hand to hit even one single note, and Neil Young, not necessarily a "great" player when it comes to technique, but I can remember a video I have seen of him playing where his hand stayed in motion for a measure or more while he didn't play.

Just to illustrate the importance of motion, I worked with a band some years ago with two other very talented but inexperienced players. During one relatively simple song we would hit a note on the downbeat of a measure and stop, coming back in on the next downbeat. For days we rehearsed this and the two guys couldn't come back in time. They both played perfectly in time during normal songs but couldn't hit this break. It finally dawned on me that when they stopped they literally stopped completely. They would go stone cold, barely taking a breath, no hand motion or foot tapping. It was that simple, I pointed it out, they kept the body motion going through the stop and neither of those guys has had that problem again.

[jramsey]

+1 to what Chip said. The only thing I'll add is that your right hand should always follow the BEAT. While tapping your foot to any song... if your foot is hitting the floor, your pick should be moving down... if your foot is in the air, your pick should be moving up. When you start applying this to rhythms that aren't straight eighth notes, it requires "ghost strokes" (pick strokes that do not hit strings) to keep your hand flowing smoothly. Take the following rhythms: quarter note (1 beat) followed by two eighth notes (1 beat for both notes). Your pick direction should be down, down, up. A lot of newbies will play this down, up, down, but in order to keep your pick moving with the beat you will need to reset after the quarter note by using a ghost stroke. Your pick will actually move, down, up, down, up.... but you're only hitting strings on the first, third, and fourth strokes (the second is a ghost stroke). Hope that makes sense.

[Richard Moore]

Or are there different techniques where the right hand stops and starts, based on the melody?

This tends to be more the way I play and I can't imagine my right hand being in constant motion.

[Timmando]

Thanks guys for setting me on the right path...

[Willie]

Drat, I wish you hadn`t posted this because now I will be paying to much attention to what my right hand is doing....I just don`t think that I keep my hand moving up and down all of the time when not striking any strings....Play everything fast and you won`t have to worry about it.....

I`M SO CONFUSED...Seriously, just keep playing and your style will come to you and that is the way you do it and don`t worry about what others do, every picker has his/her own style and that is whats correct for them....

Willie

[JeffD]

Everyone has different styles, and yet we all overlap quite a bit. I have seen many mandolinners that do that very strict rhythm keeping up and down with a free floading closed right hand. It seems an especially popular technique with those who have learned mandolin in the last decade.

I myself am not a big fan of that kind of playing. My hand is rhythmic when playing rhythm, and follows whats required of it when playing melody. When no note is called for my hand doesn't move as much, and when lots of notes are called for, my hand moves faster than the beat.

[bmac]

That is an interesting theory.... In my own playing I do not practice that constant down/up movement when not plucking strings, but i can see your point... Particularly when the player is fairly new to the instrument and may lose a sense of continuing rhythm during pauses.

I don't think I would set that up as a "rule" but maybe as a teaching tool it could be effective.... Interesting thought.

I will have to video myself playing and see if I do that reflexively. I doubt that I do it, but I have never given it any thought.

[KennyE]

That's interesting. Never really noticed before whether I stop or not. I'd say I stop, having come to the 'lin from guitar. Sort of evokes the old question: do you breathe during the back stroke when teeing off (golf). Ask someone that on the course and watch what happens.

[jramsey]

I guess that I should've clarified that my right hand isn't always moving all the time no matter what... just when I'm playing a melody or solo that requires alternating pick direction. The importance of getting used to this motion directly relates to PROPER PICK DIRECTION and TONE, two incredibly important aspects that a lot of beginning players don't often think about. If your hand doesn't move with the beat, you are likely to have hiccups in your sound and timing from jerky stopping and starting of the pick along with improper pick direction. I was self taught for two years, and one of my beginning bad habits was to use consecutive down strokes (in an otherwise alternate picking pattern) whenever I moved to a higher string. For example: upper octave of the G major scale in first position... First note is the 5th fret on the D string, second note is the open A string. I was using two downstrokes for both of these notes because it seemed like the fastest way to get my pick to that second note was another down stroke. I actually should have crossed over that A string and played it as an upstroke. One of the most frustrating experiences of my life was going back to relearn 50+ fiddle tunes with proper pick direction after having ingrained them with improper pick direction for two years. It was a long hard road, but after I squared away my right hand, I took off in terms of speed, tone, and timing and I've never looked back. It was the single most important thing Jack Tottle ever taught me. It's now ingrained and I never have to think about my pick direction, even when sightreading or playing new material... it's literally like riding a bike.

Another aspect that the swinging hand helps with is TONE. Good tone on the mandolin is a lot like a good golf swing... it requires a back swing, a good contact point, and a follow through. Swinging your hand with the beat promotes the motions that allow good tone production. If you're starting and stopping the motion of the hand, you will be prone to leave out some aspect of the equation that produces good tone.

I agree, there are a lot of ways to use the pick and make sounds, but the majority of the best players use this alternating method. Concentrating on your right hand technique and proper pick direction are the keys to developing good tone and fluid sound. Whether you believe this "theory" or not, the proof is in the pudding.

[Timmando]

Hi Jordon..you mention "If your hand doesn't move with the beat, you are likely to have hiccups in your sound and timing from jerky stopping and starting of the pick along with improper pick direction."

That is the reason for my post. I found that when I practiced sitting down, with the rhythm tracks provided by the Flatpick Apprentice http://flatpickapprentice.blogspot.com/, I found that if I did a constant up and down with my right hand, I could play a faster track and hit all the notes. Then when jamming, standing up, I noticed that I was stopping and starting my right hand and I was missing notes and my whole right arm would stiffen up, like it was resisting my stopping and starting. If I could get my right hand to start with the constant up and down, it kind of goes into default drive, I don't think so much about it, and I can concentrate on fretting the right notes at the right time. Even as a newbie I see a major difference after learning the song with a stop and start motion...when I do the constant motion with my right hand, my left hand fretting doesn't match..and I have to relearn the song to play it up to speed again. So I see what you mean about learning 50+ fiddle tunes one way, then having to relearn when you changed your right hand technique.

[Chip Booth]

I just watched this video and noticed Chris Eldridge doing the "wind up" I mentoned above at about 3:10.



It may also be worth mentioning that developing a strong sense of the consistent up/down motion is essential when you start playing songs with syncopated rhythms, rhythms that have notes that fall on the up beat without a down beat immediately in front of it. In this case you need to pick up to hit those notes rather than down, and that can be very confusing for some people. This was where I first discovered that some of my students had a weakness in this area, and learning the constant motion technique often made a lot of difference. Keep in mind this isn't a strict rule, there are time when I get out of sync, or stop all together, but in general I keep things moving.

Jramsey,thanks for the nicely broken down explanations above. I strongly believe that if a player doesn't learn to pick this way (especially the alternate picking technique you broke down nicely) they will likely find themselves limited to some degree or another.

[JLewis]

It finally dawned on me that when they stopped they literally stopped completely. They would go stone cold, barely taking a breath, no hand motion or foot tapping. It was that simple, I pointed it out, they kept the body motion going through the stop and neither of those guys has had that problem again.

I've become more aware of this problem since I've become more interested in Celtic music with it's occasional quarter notes and dotted quarter notes starting on the upbeat. I've been trying to keep the rhythm straight in my head which is distracting. After this discussion it seems clear that if my hand is trained to keep the down-up going, my brain will be free to distract me with something else.

[Trevor Thomas]

There are other ways – I’ve been doing a bit of gypsy style lately, which is ‘always use a downstroke when you change strings’ – I believe this is also widespread in the classical field, and goes back to more ancient stringed instrument/plectrum technique. And I also use down-up-up crosspicking for some things.

It’s all about context, and about how you want the music to sound.

But I believe that the ‘constant motion’ /alternate picking thing is hugely important – it keeps you in time and keeps the emphasis on the right beats. For fluidity and speed, it’s a very useful technique. I’d recommend anyone who’s relatively new to the instrument to get this down first, and move on to other techniques when you’ve got it nailed.

[Fretbear]

That's an amazingly annoying video.......

[ccravens]

I agree with everyone about the advantages of such a constant up and down right handed approach. I have an example by a member here on the cafe, David (OldSausage). Watch how his hand is in constant up-down motion throughout the song, a la Neil Young and many others.

It's a technique and a tune I've been working on for a few weeks now.

[JeffD]

It’s all about context, and about how you want the music to sound.

...... I’d recommend anyone who’s relatively new to the instrument to get this down first, and move on to other techniques when you’ve got it nailed.

There is some wisdom in that. Especially, I would imagine, with folks whose first instrument is mandolin, so the whole machinery of playing in time and finding the groove are skills still to be learned.

I tried something recently. I played some tunes with a friend of mine who is a really strong rhythm guitar player. We played some tunes together at a pretty good pace. And then I had my friend back off gradually - keep the rhythm but drop ramp down the volume slowly, until totally gone.

What I found is that I had a pretty rhythmic style with my right hand, which became more and more emphasized as I had to take over the rhythmic responsibilities. FWIW.

[Loretta Callahan]

Easy when you don't think about it, but not so easy to get there. I've been struggling with this right pick stroke up/foot up/pick down/foot down for months. My teacher has been hardcore about my getting this right. What finally worked for me was playing in front of a mirror. My right hand technique improved exponentially in one day because I could see the rhythm in my right hand and feel it in my foot. I immediately knew when my pick direction was out of whack. And, for some reason, I just started picking properly most of the time.

Another thing my teacher said is to think of my right hand as the dominant force, and the left hand .... less so, not sure if I want to use the word submissive here. The beat is king; it's the heartbeat, right as rain ... always ... on the beat.

For ITM/Celtic folks, this applies to reels: 4/4, not to Jigs and Slipjigs 6/8 and 9/8 ... another subject I don't want to touch right now.

+1 to what Chip said. The only thing I'll add is that your right hand should always follow the BEAT. While tapping your foot to any song... if your foot is hitting the floor, your pick should be moving down... if your foot is in the air, your pick should be moving up......