Advice on Budget Mandolin for Studio (Kentucky KM 174 vs KM 254)

[TCM]

Hi there,

This is my first post after doing a fair amount of research and reading on this site and a few others.

I'm hoping to get some advice on purchasing an fairly inexpensive mandolin, mostly for studio recording. Primary use will be for background, and some lead parts for country and roots type music (not bluegrass). I've been a guitar player for close to 30 years, but this will be my first venture into the mandolin world, so I will have that learning curve to deal with as well. I am hoping to purchase a mandolin that I'll enjoy playing as well as sound good recorded.

After going back and forth between different price points and brands/models, (and originally looking at getting a Breedlove Quartz OO), I've decided to be a bit more practical and start with something a bit more modest, without it being complete junk or something I'll soon regret owning.

At this pont, I've now narrowed down my decision to a Kentucky, and narrowed it down to either a KM-174, or the KM-254.

I've got a couple of questions though on the differences between these two mandolins.

From what I gather, the 254 seems like possibly the better instrument, but I'm not certain it's the better choice for my purposes, primarily because of it being an f-hole, and maybe not sounding as nice for recording, but I'm just guessing here. I could also use a ribbon mic to record it, (AEA R84) which might smooth out any harshness. From what I understand, an oval hole will be a bit mellower and possibly sit better in a mix with other instruments.

The neck on the KM 254 looks like it's easier to access frets up to the 15th fret, which might be a little more cumbersome on the KM174. I'm not sure how the necks differ apart from that, (my preference would probably be for larger frets, which is why the Breedlove was very appealing to me).

Any advice, opinions or experience anyone could provide on these two mandolins would be very much appreciated! (I'm also open to other suggestions for my purposes, these are just the two I've presently narrowed it down to).

Thanks very much.

[Jim]

I have both oval hole and F hole instruments and they are all different but in a mix with other instruments I find F holes cut through and hold their own a bit better in a mix, I like some of the harmonic overtones in some oval hole flat/canted tops better but those are often lost in a mix anyway. I don't have a specific opinion on those models though. I like shorter necks too which are often found on oval holes though the longer scales allow access to higher frets with a little more space between, I don't find myself above the 12th or even the 7th much. Are you able to try them out? I'm sure you know that would be best.

[TCM]

Thanks for the reply Jim.

I'm unfortunately not able to try either model before purchase, but yes, that would certainly be best. I guess that the f holes would actually cut through better as you say, so that might actually be better for recording than the oval hole.

Good things to consider, thanks again for the response.

[red7flag]

Not familiar with the particular models, but have a lot of experience with both ovals and f holes. I agree with what Jim says. Ovals can get as much volume as an F, but in a less focused way. The sound seems to disperse more. The oval to me seems to sing more and blend in well with other instruments and is excellent in duets and Celtic music where it is blending in. In a jam or loud band situation, an f hole will cut through the jam or band noise. I have only recorded with f holes, but that may change today when I am recording with my oval hole mandola. I will let you know how it works.

[TCM]

Thanks for the reply Tony. For recording purposes, volume would not be so much of an issue, since the mandolin would be recorded on it's own. Tone quality and sustain would be more important I think than cutting through other instruments, or natural instrument volume.

I realize it's hard to say what would work best without trying them. I'm just not sure if oval vs f hole with these two mandolins would be night and day in terms of tone quality. I guess my worry is that the f hole might be too thin or bright in an unpleasant way, but both these models seem to get good reviews for being quality, good sounding starter mandolins. If the KM 254 sounds decent in the room, I'm confident I can make it sound good recorded...

I'll try and hunt for some clips of both mandolins, although clips are generally a terrible way to judge, it will at least give me some points of reference.

Thanks again.

[Markus]

I would echo the 'forget about above 12th fret' sentiment. That area is not heavily used and IMO only sounds sweet on nicer instruments.

Personally, I would find a used Breedlove OO. Wait to find one at a good price and you can resell it if it ain't for you ... I have a BL so I am biased, but found them noticeably better than what you're looking at.

[TCM]

Thanks. The Breedlove would be nice of course, but it's also in a different price bracket. The Kentucky's are in the $300.00 range, while a used Breedlove is in the $900 + range.

I'm not quite ready to take that leap yet financially, so I wanted to start with something slightly more cost effective for now without it being completely terrible. If mandolin was the primary instrument in a recording, I would certainly look at the Breedlove option though, and certainly may in the near future.

Regarding the 12th fret and above, that does make sense to me, thanks very much for your perspective.

[Steve Ostrander]

I would go for a Kentucky km505. A little more $$ but worth it.

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I owned a Breedlove 00 and still have a Kentucky Km-174 that I've been telling myself (and being told) I need to sell. The 174 is built like the old gibsons, short neck, very full, very round sound, wonderful tubby low end and great trebles, without being piercing. The Breedlove had the big open sound also, just not on the same scale as the 174 and it also had more defined, biting trebles. Needless to say I like them both a lot. I rarely play at the 15th fret, but when I've tried to the shorter necks didn't seem to be a problem, in fact its almost easier cause you can grab the neck/body join and wail away. But like I said, thats not an area of expertise (like the rest of the mandolin) of mine.

[TCM]

I would go for a Kentucky km505. A little more $$ but worth it.

Thanks Steve, that may be an option as well. I'm trying to figure out the differences. The specs are similar (505 has an ebony fingerboard). Is the 505 just a better built instrument?

KM-505

Solid, hand-carved and graduated select spruce top
Solid, hand-carved select highly flamed maple back and sides
Solid one-piece maple neck with adjustable truss rod
Nitrocellulose lacquer vintage amberburst finish
Mountain Rose Mother of Pearl headstock inlay
High-quality nickel-plated Gotoh tuners
Radiused ebony fingerboard, adjustable bridge, and bone nut
Dovetail neck to body joint at 15th fret

KM-254

Solid, hand carved and graduated spruce top
Solid, hand carved and graduated flamed maple back and sides
Solid one piece maple neck adjustable truss rod
Nitrocellulose lacquer finish available in sunburst or burgundy
Rosewood headstock overlay with Mother of Pearl Inlays
High quality, nickel-plated Gotoh tuners with engraved plate
Radiused Rosewood fingerboard, adjustable bridge, and bone nut
Dovetail neck to body joint at 14th fret

[TCM]

I owned a Breedlove 00 and still have a Kentucky Km-174 that I've been telling myself (and being told) I need to sell. The 174 is built like the old gibsons, short neck, very full, very round sound, wonderful tubby low end and great trebles, without being piercing. The Breedlove had the big open sound also, just not on the same scale as the 174 and it also had more defined, biting trebles. Needless to say I like them both a lot. I rarely play at the 15th fret, but when I've tried to the shorter necks didn't seem to be a problem, in fact its almost easier cause you can grab the neck/body join and wail away. But like I said, thats not an area of expertise (like the rest of the mandolin) of mine.

Thanks for the info on both of those, much appreciated. Have you had the chance to compare with similar f hole models?

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

I have somewhat. I own a couple F-holers from Eastman and Weber. I've also played the walls at Elderly and Gruhns. And even though I've become smitten with the Weber, my ear and what I like to play has gravitated towards the ovals. To me the rounder, more obtuse bellowing bell-like tones of the ovals are just more appealing. I guess it depends on what you want to play. If your looking for loud, than an F'er for sure, but in the cheaper instruments if your looking for a wider range of tone I would think the oval. And I guess I shouldn't say a wider range of tone, just that the oval produced sounds the F couldn't and those were the sounds I specifically liked more. An F maybe more versatile overall, but in that range they still can't reproduce some of the things an oval can.

Really it comes down to what you plan on doing with it. For bluegrass and loud jam situations you'll probably want an F, but if your going to be playing solo or laying down tracks alone or with a guitar backing you or what not, then, in my opinion, I would go for an oval. You don't the sharp "chop" out of it, but you do get things an F can't do. Also keep in mind that I am a rank beginner, this is just what appeals to me and what I've found after fretting over instruments too much and not worrying about practicing enough.

[TCM]

Really it comes down to what you plan on doing with it. For bluegrass and loud jam situations you'll probably want an F, but if your going to be playing solo or laying down tracks alone or with a guitar backing you or what not, then, in my opinion, I would go for an oval. You don't the sharp "chop" out of it, but you do get things an F can't do. Also keep in mind that I am a rank beginner, this is just what appeals to me and what I've found after fretting over instruments too much and not worrying about practicing enough.

Well, I'm a rank beginner too, so no problem there ;-).

No Bluegrass, primarily will be used for more roots to modern country sitting in a mix with acoustic guitar, lap steel, bass, electric guitar, some banjo, vocals. Mostly simple parts, chord strumming with some lead parts/melody lines.

I wish I was able to play these. You would wonder if the tone of say the KM-505 f would not be "wamer" or "sweeter" than the less expensive KM 147, but maybe they are equally decent in sound, just different.

I'm speculating that the punchier more cutting tone of an f hole might be just fine for what I want to do, but I'm assuming with the more budget f hole mandolins, they possibly lean towards thinner and more bitey...

[ColdBeerGoCubs]

Thats a tough one. The 174 is the only oval in Kentucky's line up I think, so its hard to compare. The 505 gets great reviews around here. To me the sound of the 174 is more full than my Eastman F, but the Eastman is more cutting, slightly tinny and thinner. A guitar I wouldn't worry about, I've played with acoustic bass and a couple of guitars and the ovals have done just fine, but if you need to compete with a banjo you might want to think about an F. Of course an F in that price range is probably going to be a crap shoot, some great some not so great.

I don't know though, I spent too much worrying about this stuff and neck widths and all that, once I gave all that up and just started playing I realized there were far few problems than I had created in my own mind.

[TCM]

There's not a whole lot of banjo in the music I'm doing, but some parts here and there. That's very true, the KM 505, 254, and 174 all seem to get pretty decent reviews, so I'm assuming that none of these sound particularly bad, and all would probably be pretty good recorded. Of course it also comes down to the player, and I've got some work to do there first.

Yes, a lot of options to consider here...

Thanks!

[Markus]

a used Breedlove is in the $900 + range

Not to quibble, but I see two in the classifieds for $800 shipped, and have seen them for lower [not for long].

What I would say is to keep an eye on the classifieds. A lot of people upgrade from instruments in the range you're buying, and you get a lot of improvement as you move from the few hundred to thousand dollar range.

One of those KM-505's used might just be the ticket - or something else that comes up.

More than anything, be sure to buy a new instrument from a seller who does a phenomenal mandolin setup, if used take it past a luthier who knows mandolins well. With the short scale and floating bridge, getting action low and intonation dead on to start with is huge. Just a tiny bit can make it so much more playable, unbelievably so.

[TCM]

Not to quibble, but I see two in the classifieds for $800 shipped, and have seen them for lower [not for long].

Not at all, I greatly appreciate your thoughts and input. The Breedlove was my initial choice (was also considering a Red Valley), I just realized that I should step back a bit and start with something less expensive to get the job done for now. Normally I'm a "buy once" type of guy when it comes to guitars and studio gear, but I've got a few other things on my list for my recording projects (such as a good versatile ribbon mic), and limited resources. Since I'm a beginner on mandolin, I thought I'd be a bit more practical to start out.

Good point regarding setup, thanks!

[TCM]

I've been comparing the mp3 clips from themandolinstore.com for all three of the Kentucky models (174, 250, 505), listening through my studio monitors (downloaded to itunes to create a playlist to switch between files). Mp3's aren't the best reference, but it gives me an idea.

There's no notes on how each was recorded, but I'm guessing (hoping) they were recorded with the same recording device and/or general mic setup.

The KM172 (oval) recording I think sounds the nicest overall, at least on first listen. Mellower, sitting back a bit compared to the other two.

KM 250 clip is the loudest, not sure if that's the instrument or mic position/preamp levels when recorded. Quite a bit more pronounced midrange than the 172. Still not harsh at all though.

KM 505 clip is quieter, which makes me think it's just recording levels. Similar to the 250, maybe a bit sweeter sounding, less mid forward.

This is tough. I think all three sound decent to my ears anyway. 250 on that recording has more midrange, but could always be eq'd. It would definitely sit up front a bit more than the 172. KM 172 sounds quite nice as well.

Would it be ok to post links here to each of the clips, or is that generally frowned upon, as it's linking to a retailer? It would be great to get some other opinions on the clips.

[MandoSquirrel]

Thanks. The Breedlove would be nice of course, but it's also in a different price bracket. The Kentucky's are in the $300.00 range, while a used Breedlove is in the $900 + range.

....

A little bit of shopping around should reveal used Breedlove Quartz "O" bodies in the $600 to $700 neighborhood, and, good as the Kentucky's may be, a $300 Kentucky probably won't be near as nice, durable, or versatile.

[TCM]

Here are links to the audio clips if anyone wants to have a listen. It would be great to get some feedback from any owners of these models to see if these match up to what they hear when they play them.

KM 174

KM 254

KM 505

[TCM]

A little bit of shopping around should reveal used Breedlove Quartz "O" bodies in the $600 to $700 neighborhood, and, good as the Kentucky's may be, a $300 Kentucky probably won't be near as nice, durable, or versatile.

Thanks, yes as Markus pointed out there are a couple in the classifieds as well currently for less than $900.00. Very nice, but I think still a bit more than I'm wanting to spend. I figure if I get something half decent now I can always sell it when I'm ready to upgrade.

[TCM]

Here are links to the audio clips if anyone wants to have a listen. It would be great to get some feedback from any owners of these models to see if these match up to what they hear when they play them.

KM 174

KM 254

KM 505

Interestingly, my wife (who is a classical vocalist), preferred the clip of the 254 far more than the other two. She thought the 174 in that clip sounded too much like a ukulele, and the 505 was a bit buzzy. She felt the second clip had richer tone. After listening again, I'd probably agree to an extent.

It's also a good example of why clips are really hard to get a true sense of things from. I would have expected the 505 to be the clear winner, but the mic position and type could have been completely different in all three clips..

[almeriastrings]

You really will have a hard time going by short recorded clips... the only reliable way is to hear them in person. These are all very decent sounding mandolins. Personally, I prefer the KM-505 - but so much depends on string choice, pick choice, and of course, the player.... and your own preferences. None of them are bad. They can all be set up to play very nicely. I think the 505 is a lot of mando for the $$$... but then then KM900 is a lot more (mando & $$$!!).

[TCM]

I know, it's a bit futile as there are so many variables with clips.

I did another listening test with my wife, and added in the Breedlove OO clip... of course guess which one she liked the best?

She did inform me that it is however out of the running, after I mentioned prices (won't be making that mistake again ;-)

[Steve L]

Have you considered a flat top mandolin at all? A used Mid Missouri/Big Muddy would be in your budget and they're hand built with all solid woods. Where chop and projection are really not issues for you, you might end up with best bang for the buck with one of these.