Bluegrass festival

[Willie Poole]

I woner what other peoples take is on this:

I recently went to a festival, $25 for one day which ain`t bad but the bands that were booked left a lot to be desired, I usually go to a festival to meet and jam with others pickers so I got into a nice jam session and here came a few pickers that sort of barged in and started playing like they were the stars of the show and the way they were playing no one could tell what songs they were doing and it surely wasn`t bluegrass, just a lot of notes thrown together, as suspected that jam broke up mighty quickly so I moved on to another one and they were there also and that jam broke up....How do we get it into their heads that jam sessions are not for songs that are way too complicated as everyone don`t know those "off the wall tunes",,,The good jam sessions tend to stick with bluegrass standards or at least songs that are pretty simple.....These new mandolin pickers seem to think they must copy Chris T or Sierra Hull and try to play way too far over their heads....

I didn`t stay very long and won`t go back to that festival, of course it isnt the promoters fault as to what happens out in the field..

Just wanted to sound off....Willie

[f5loar]

If they say what the song is I usually just say "Now that's a jam buster" meaning you are on your own. Most jammers know they don't know it all or even know what they do know correctly. How many put the E chord in "Old Folks At Home" when it doesn't belong there? Or don't hold the Em chord that extra beat on FMB like Lester did? It happened back during the early "Dawg" days of jams so I guess you can expect to continue having those jam buster songs. I ususally use that time to go to the bathroom.
I wonder if Bill had that problem in 1945 when he would let Earl knock off a few backstage at the Opry jams. I bet those seasoned pickers knew it was out of their league to keep up with that. Can you imagine how Stringbean and Uncle Dave first felt?

[John Duncan]

Willie,

I feel for ya. Seems to happen at a lot of the Pickins I go to. It feels like my generation of pickers is very set on instrumental stuff and not singing or etiquette.

[AlanN]

Precisly why I pick my jams carefully. I only jam with those who I can hang with without any scenes or jambuster types. And of course, the bands and their buses. Got Lil John's in Snow Camp coming up. Grasscals will be there, would like to check out Danny's Loar - he on my 23 and me on his 22, yessir.

[John Duncan]

It's sad that it has come to that. The guys in the generation before me talk about how the special jams were out in the open. That Larry rice or jimmy Haley would just be out in the middle jamming. I really feel like I missed out on an awesome part of the NC bluegrass scene. I know cool stuff happens still but it seems like it is behind closed hotel doors.
I'm looking forward to lil johns/bass mountain too! I've never been.

[f5loar]

John, Have you gone to the Asheville jam at Mrs. Hyatt's on Thursday nights? Lots of singing there and many times some really good pickers so up to hold it all together. Evan Reilly is the new host of the jam night. He gives everyone a fair share and tries to hold the jam busters at bay. I've been there many times when you only hear Monroe songs.

[Willie Poole]

In my younger days I would go around to jam sessions and hand pick people and ask them to join me over at a site a little farther away and then we sort of roped off the area with chairs so no one could just barge in and after a few arguments with some people that were high on whatever and wanted to jam we shut that down also...I am not a fighter, mostly because i don`t want my mandolin to get busted up...Don`t get me wrong, I have been to many festivals and had some great jams but the point I was trying to make is that it seems that times are a changing...Of course having bands at bluegrass festivals that aren`t really bluegrass doesn`t help matters, sure they attract more people maybe, for a time, but it also drives the true bluegrassers away...

I have been to many festivals where I never went to the stage area and didnt even know or care who was on the program....And would pick all night, until the wife came and got me for breakfast....

Glad to see some of you have had the same experiences as I have and thanks for the suggestions on how to avoid the "jam busters"....

Willie

[Ivan Kelsall]

It's the same over here in the UK. It always seems that the more experienced players need to 'show off' their prowess to us lesser mortals.One of the things that i've always encouraged is to get younger players playing along with us oldies.When the 'super pickers' roll up,i've told more than a few to find their own jam,as we're doing just fine without 'em.You don't need to be rude or offensive,just get the message over.If they choose to 'play our way',well come on in,if not.............................!! In your case Willie,i'd have put my instrument away & sat it out 'til they went away & tried again,
Ivan

[neil argonaut]

I can't speak about festivals, but up here in Scotland I've found any session I go to the excellent players tend to be very welcoming and encouraging; even when I was really just starting and was totally fine with just sitting back and watching others they'd push me to get involved regardless if i could pick as fast as them or not. most of the tunes played tend to be bluegrass or country standards and there's normally plenty of singing. Maybe I've just been lucky so far not to have experienced those problems so far.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Neil - I think that you've come at the problem from the 'other side'. I've found much the same thing as you - except- sometimes when a really nice jam's going on,you'll (ocasionally) get some 'wannabe' super picker who'll come in & try to take over. One Banjo player tried that once when Tony Trishka was holding a jam session over here many years back.TT was giving all the pickers a break each when playing the tunes & this particular guy just wouldn't let up.TT gave him such a scornful look that he packed up & p***ed off. For me,you can always tell the 'really good' pickers,they're the ones with nothing to prove & who give the most encouragement to us lesser mortals,
Ivan

[farmerjones]

-you can always tell the 'really good' pickers,they're the ones with nothing to prove & who give the most encouragement to us lesser mortals,
Ivan

AMEN Amen

[JeffD]

,you can always tell the 'really good' pickers,they're the ones with nothing to prove & who give the most encouragement

THere it is.

[JeffD]

I will get shot up for this, but I find that bluegrass has a little more of this kind of thing than OT and IT. I mean, all genre of jams have their jam busters and folks that show off, but I get a little more of that competitive vibe from BG, while for the most part other genres folks just want to play together. With BG there is this "show us what you got" thing.

Its not necessarily bad. Lots of folks like it. It certainly adds to the intensity and drive of the music. But perhaps it can lead to abuse faster than other less competitive genres.

[250sc]

Lets look at this from another perspective.

I'd rather play less known, or more complex material but have never broken up a jam. We find a quite corner and play the material we like. Others are welcome to join in, even if they're doing more simple material. We make them welcome and give them encouragment. If they want to learn the material we play we help but don't change our jam for them unless they're calling the next tune. Everyone gets a turn.

We don't force anyone to play with us or even listen to us but we always have a crowd and most like it. On the other hand Ive had strict traditionalists ask me why we're there if we aren't going to play what everyone else can play. My answer is that there should be enough room for everyone to have a good time and point out that there are lots of jams happening. If they don't like what we're doing, why are they hanging around us?

So, is this inconsiderate? Opinions are welcome.

PS. None of us are competitive players and just trying to out-do each other. We just love playing acoustic music of all types and we sure wouldn't think of roping off our area to keep other out.

[JeffD]

Good jam etiquette would argue that you should listen a good bit when approaching a jam, to see if the jam is to your taste. If the jam is too traditional or simple for your taste, move on. You have no right to impose. Likewise, as 250sc implies, if the jam is more obscure or complicated than you want, move on, you've got no right to impose either.

If everyone followed that rule there would not be jam busters. To quote Hamilton "But this is a thing more ardently to be wished than seriously to be expected."

[Tom Haywood]

In every genre I've played, the guitar players have tended to be aggressive and competitive and try to hog the jam. And the audiences tend to reward them for it. Of course, this isn't true of everyone. The nicest thing about taking up the mandolin is that mandolin players tend to be less competitive and more inclusive, or else absent. Guitar players only give me the competitive stuff when I put the mandolin down and pick up a guitar. I think they have a healthy fear of mandolin players.

[AlanN]

It takes some guts/cojones/chutzpah to walk up to a jam of folks you don't know, whip it out and start flailing away. I always feel a little trepidation when doing that. In those cases, I usually hang out at the outskirts, un-opened case on the ground and listen. More often than not, they say 'Come on in, the water's fine'.

[Justus True Waldron]

To me good bluegrass jams (well, most good bluegrass in general) comes down to playing the melody. I'm not sure how I managed to learn this at my ripe old age of 23, but I'm glad I have. I've been very fortunate to be in a number of very good jams (both behind closed hotel doors and out in the open), so maybe that has something to do with it. Obviously when I say "playing the melody" I mean spicing it up, not just playing it straight. But I think a lot of times even playing it straight would be better than just playing a ton of random notes in the same key.

How have I avoided the jam busting? Well at the last festival I tried something out, and ended up being really successful at it. I learned my tunes! Both singing and instrumental... all the classics I could manage to cram into my Brain. For those of you doing this for years, this work is probably already done, but for me who's only been really going at this a few years, it was necessary homework. Next I took two good friends I play with a lot (banjo and guitar) and just started ripping into a classic. Within seconds we had a bass player... then a really good fiddle. Every time we ended a song, I'd just call out another and designate someone to kick it and then launch right into it before there was time for complaints. Since I was leading, I'd call the breaks, making sure to give everyone that wanted one a turn, usually 2-3 breaks in between verses since by this time the circle was big. Instrumentals we mostly passed around the inner circle. Endings were all called by me with the universal foot out signal. If someone really wanted to do a song, they'd make it clear quickly and loudly, and as long as nobody else had a real sour look on their face I'd go for it. The people that knew their tunes stuck around... the posers generally couldn't keep up (or didn't get called on) and left. After a couple hours that jam started to fade, so without sticking around to hope it would get better, I just left. Picked a new spot and started up again, with very similar results. I found out later from some of the good players who later ended up at the new jam that the old one collapsed shortly after I left. I kept calling tunes in the new one and it lasted until none of us could stay awake any more.

I thought that perhaps I was being a little harsh or controlling by running things, or that I'd tick some people off. On the contrary, I was repeatedly thanked by people for giving them the best jam of the fest! I made a lot of new picking friends from that, and if I annoyed anybody they left and didn't say anything to me.

In short, my take home lesson: 1. Know your tunes... especially classics 2. Run things yourself, don't slow down or things will fall apart

Willie, It sounds like you've been around a fair bit longer than me, I'm sure this is all old news to you. I'm just sharing my experience because it kind of was a recent breakthrough to me jam-wise. I had so much fun calling songs and keeping the energy up I ended up starting a band with some of my friends that were there that night. The "band" setting is now where I can try out those complicated tunes and showboating stuff. A good jam needs everyone on the same page!

[JeffD]

To me good bluegrass jams (well, most good bluegrass in general) comes down to playing the melody. ...... But I think a lot of times even playing it straight would be better than just playing a ton of random notes in the same key.

How have I avoided the jam busting? Well at the last festival I tried something out, and ended up being really successful at it. I learned my tunes! .......

In short, my take home lesson: 1. Know your tunes... especially classics !

This is gigantic.

[JeffD]

In every genre I've played, the guitar players have tended to be aggressive and competitive and try to hog the jam. .

There is a bit of this. Also fiddlers. Yes the fiddlers call the tune. At a dance. But not so much at a jam.


It is this kind of behavior that has made many long standing jams go to a round robin approach, where everyone gets to start a tune at what ever level they are at. While there is a place for a tune-around jam, its not as much fun, IMO. Its a case of the bad apples spoiling the barrel.

[JeffD]

To me good bluegrass jams (well, most good bluegrass in general) comes down to playing the melody. !

There have been several threads in the past where someone was asking for improv tricks and tips to be able to take a break on any tune, or asking for things to do in jam when you don't know the tune, etc.

Perhaps I am extreme the other way, but it has always struck me as an amazing thing to seek. "How can I participate in your activity without knowing what I am doing?"

[Justus True Waldron]

Well to be fair to those people that have said that, sometimes you do hear something at a jam and want to learn it... and a lot of times fiddle tunes are simple enough that you CAN actually pick them up more or less on the spot. But learning a fiddle tune at a jam (usually accomplished quietly and not right in the middle of everything) and playing lots of spazzy notes over the top of it are not the same thing! While this was mostly his response to people doodling in between songs at band practice, as my clarinet teacher used to say: Practice at home!

Jesse Cobb (I know I mention him a lot, but in the couple of times I got to talk with him I picked up several good nuggets of information) told a story at a workshop I took with him. He said a lot of times after shows some kid would come up to him with a mandolin and be like "look dude, I learned your song, I play it in my band!"... and then play a bunch of notes in more or less the same key. Jesse said he's a nice guy and you want to be nice to your fans, but sometimes he wanted to just say "uh, that's not my song, that's just a bunch of crap in Em!" He said to view songs as if you wrote them, how would you want someone else to play it, as a matter of respect? Interpretation is fine, and a lot of times good... but there is definitely a line where a song stops being a song and starts being something else. Think off all the Bebop songs based off of the changes to I got Rhythm... would anyone argue that Oleo and Salt Peanuts are both the same song? There are a million and one fiddle tunes in A with basically the same progression, but they all have different names for a reason. You don't come to a jam and go "Ok, let's play the A fiddle tune, then after a half hour we can play the G fiddle tune..."

[Willie Poole]

Tom Haywood, In Florida I used to go to some jams and each one seemed to have at least three mandolin players, most of them playing el-cheapo mandolins, which is alright if thats all they can afford but they all try to out do each other with a lot of so called fancy licks...When I finally got the chance to do a song I played one so simple that everyone could follow and when I finished they applauded me and asked me to do a few more, the young mandolin pickers all went away and looked for another jam session to ruin...Even in my band we try and keep it simple so the audience can trll what we are playing and we don`t seem to go to many weeks without gigs....

Everyone to their own taste and if trying to play like 200MPH then go for it, when you loose your audience you will understand where I am coming from, most people like to hear songs that they can recognize...

Willie

[Tom Haywood]

Everyone to their own taste and if trying to play like 200MPH then go for it, when you loose your audience you will understand where I am coming from, most people like to hear songs that they can recognize...

Willie

I'm with you 100% on sticking to the melody as much as possible and spice it up a little if you can make it appropriate. I don't care for a player who is all about fireworks, but I see that a lot of people in the audience want to see that. There is a certain aggressiveness in it that I really don't think helps the music. But there are always people there for the show, not so much for the music. Sounds like you've encountered more than your share of aggressive mandolin players.

[Earl Gamage]

I woner what other peoples take is on this:

I recently went to a festival, $25 for one day which ain`t bad but the bands that were booked left a lot to be desired, I usually go to a festival to meet and jam with others pickers so I got into a nice jam session and here came a few pickers that sort of barged in and started playing like they were the stars of the show and the way they were playing no one could tell what songs they were doing and it surely wasn`t bluegrass, just a lot of notes thrown together, as suspected that jam broke up mighty quickly so I moved on to another one and they were there also and that jam broke up....How do we get it into their heads that jam sessions are not for songs that are way too complicated as everyone don`t know those "off the wall tunes",,,The good jam sessions tend to stick with bluegrass standards or at least songs that are pretty simple.....These new mandolin pickers seem to think they must copy Chris T or Sierra Hull and try to play way too far over their heads....

I didn`t stay very long and won`t go back to that festival, of course it isnt the promoters fault as to what happens out in the field..

Just wanted to sound off....Willie

What I think happens a lot at festivals is bands will join a jam because they want to jam like everyone else. But they always seem to perform rather than jam. Just natural I guess. A jam is not a performance, big difference.

I even saw a band get up from a jam circle and form up like they were on stage and do a tune. Completely ill mannered.