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Thread: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

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    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Forgive me if this has been answered...didn't find the answer yet, and it's hard to search for terms like "A2".

    I've read this article, which is helpful, but still left me a bit confused.

    My question is what is the difference between a 1923 oval hole Gibson snakehead A2 and a 1923 oval hole snakehead A2z?

    Is it simply the finish color, or are there other differences?

    For example, this is a 1923 A2

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    And this is a A2z shipped in 1923

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    The same 1923 A2 headstock:

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    The same A2z shipped in 1923:

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    It seems to me that they are both oval hole, truss rod, A-styles made at the same time by the same people? Is it simply the finish color?

    Thanks, Larry

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    The difference is about twenty-five hundred bucks! Or more!

    In addition to the difference in color, the A2Z has a different soundhole rosette, and the top is double-bound, with a black strip of binding inside the white one. The A2Z in Charles' photo, however, has an unusual rosette: two triple rings (as opposed to two double rings on the A2), which is different from the typical A2Z rosette seen here:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/at...8&d=1251704983

    And oh yeah, the A2Z has a "Z" on the label, if correctly stamped.
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    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Thanks Martin.

    So it would seem logically that with a blindfold on it would be very difficult to tell the difference between them.

    I know that A2z's are sought after, but I thought it was due to the truss rods, slimmer necks, snakeheads, and great sound. It seems like the same period snakehead A2's would have the same sound?

    Shouldn't they be the same specs in terms of graduations, bracing, etc?

    I'm not a vintage guy by any means, and NFI in any vintage instrument here or anywhere else, but it seems that in terms of playability, adjustability, and sound/tone shouldn't they be just about identical?

    Larry

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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    I've been told that the A2Zs were made using leftover A3 tops and that the higher level mandolins like A3 and A4 used better quality top wood. Someone more knowledgeable might want to comment on that.

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    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by uncle ken View Post
    I've been told that the A2Zs were made using leftover A3 tops and that the higher level mandolins like A3 and A4 used better quality top wood. Someone more knowledgeable might want to comment on that.
    Well that would be a real difference (non-cosmetic). Very interesting. Thanks.

    Larry

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Also, it's not uncommon for an A2Z to have a maple back & sides. An A2 would be more likely to have birch.
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Daryl Wolfe mentioned in another thread that the A2z were made from left-over A3 parts, hence the different model designation that differenciated it from the A2. I would venture a guess that meant the A2z had a higher grade of spruce for the tops and maple back & sides, plus the slightly fancier adornments.
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Also, it's not uncommon for an A2Z to have a maple back & sides. An A2 would be more likely to have birch.
    I have been curious about the tonewoods used in the A2-Z... and really just the snakehead A's in general.

    I have an A-Jr snakehead with maple sides and back, and I have seen A2-Zs advertised as having birch sides and back. Can anyone comment on this - that it - are there certain years that birch was used and then a wholesale switch to maple...? is it model dependent, etc....??? I suspect it was not that organized, but there are certainly many on this forum with vastly more experience.

    Also, if folks have experience with maple vs birch back and sides on any snakehead - did you note a tonal difference and if so, how would you describe it...??? thanks all.

    ~ Larry

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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    I think that the "maple" ones are still birch. It can have figure in the wood, and, I have yet to see a maple A of any kind in the teens and twenties. Only the one and only A5.
    I may have seen a maple F2, and may have one.... but, I still suspect it's birch too. As are all the rest.
    There could be the very odd exception, as in all things Gibson, but, I have not seen it.

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    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Waltham View Post
    I think that the "maple" ones are still birch. It can have figure in the wood, and, I have yet to see a maple A of any kind in the teens and twenties. Only the one and only A5.
    I may have seen a maple F2, and may have one.... but, I still suspect it's birch too. As are all the rest.
    There could be the very odd exception, as in all things Gibson, but, I have not seen it.
    Hmmm, interesting...

    Those usually are dark finishes, birch can look like maple under varnish (especially certain tight-flamed figurings), and I didn't really totally grok the A-model wood that I casually diagnosed as being maple...

    But I woulda sworn that I've seen quite a few maple As over the years....

    One A2Z in a pawnshop/music store in Omaha certainly comes to mind...

    But, yeah, all of 'em could very well have been tight-flamed birch...

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    Brentrup Evangelist Larry S Sherman's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    My curiosity came when I purchased a Brentrup A2 snakehead that was a copy of a 1923 A2 snakehead.

    For comparison, here's the Gibson:

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    And here's the Brentrup:

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    So since Hans used Red Spruce/Red Maple it should be basically A2z specs, other than the cosmetic differences. Doesn't really matter, but I was curious. And I do find this vintage Gibson history kinda fascinating.

    Larry

    PS: Hans discussed this a bit in an older thread.
    Last edited by Larry S Sherman; Mar-25-2012 at 10:31am. Reason: adding link to old thread

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    Cafe Linux Mommy danb's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Regarding Maple.. I'm pretty sure my F2 is:

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    It's a '22/'23 #72176

    Hard to really say if all A2zs are "left over parts", but A-models in the 22-24 range are all over the map. Labels with "A" that have back binding, peghead logos.. some that are blonde z's with all the features and "A2" on the label, some black top A models with the black-white binding that folks call "black A2zs", etc etc.

    The thing about the A2z model, in my mind, is that it's *always* a snakehead (except for one prototype paddlehead!), always from the loar period.. so they have the reputation for sounding good.

    I personally hunt for early serial snakeheads (71xxx), but I've had great ones from all through the spectrum of 71xxx to 81xxx. It's individual instruments, some just sound better than others.

    A z is a very cool thing, especially because of the rarity, but it doesn't always mean a great-sounding one.

    You also will get these other models from all over the date range that sound great. My favorite oval hole of all time is a late 3pt f2.. it has crazy bluegrass chop & volume even.
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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    The thing to remember is that they were all built in batches and the specs were changing at this time. But, within a batch they looked the same.

    Generally speaking, a 1923 A2 is brown. Generally speaking, a late '23 or '24 A2 is a blonde face A2z. They (A2z) appear to be built from scratch and they also appear to have been a "spec" that allowed them to use up the discontinued A3 which existed in early '23. The A2z come in several different rosettes and the double binding is also from two distinct "batches" of binding. The later A2z's tended to have figured backs and pearl button tuners (which the earlier ones usually did not)

    Likewise the blacktop A2 looking mandolins of '24 and '25 that are all marked "A" were another way to use stuff up instead of building from scratch.
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Is there an estimate how many "true" A2z were built - ie typically blond face, double binding, snakehead?
    Felix
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Well, there are 54 in the Mandolin Archive.

    The Archive lists about 4% of all Gibson *instruments* built between 1900 and 1950. However, since not all Gibson instruments were mandolins, the percentage of Gibson *mandolins* listed is higher. Say, if half of the Gibsons from this period are mandolins and the rest are guitars and banjos, then the Archive contains 8% of the mandolins. But I'm just making these numbers up. Then you have to figure that the Archive has a bias toward more collectible instruments like the A2Z, and snakeheads in general, which are more likely than plain-Jane paddlehead A's to be photographed and submitted. I would guess that the number of A2Z's in the Archive is as high as 20% of the total.

    You could also add up all the snakeheads listed in the Archive and calculate what percentage of those are A2Z's. Then count the number of unique snakehead lot numbers in Spann's book and multiply that number by 40 (the amount of instruments in a lot). Then take the percentage of A2Z's from that total. Guessing it's 250 to 300.
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Then count the number of unique snakehead lot numbers in Spann's book and multiply that number by 40 (the amount of instruments in a lot). Then take the percentage of A2Z's from that total. Guessing it's 250 to 300.
    Joe Spann's book lists 11 batches of A2z (if I counted right).
    But I understand that the batch sizes could vary, not necessarily be always exactly 40 instruments. (?)
    Felix
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Ah, but as we've discussed elsewhere on the board, not every instrument in an A-style batch has the same model designation. They just have the same body type. So Joe has 11 FONs for which he lists an A2Z as the exemplar; that does not mean every instrument in the batch was an A2Z.
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    Formerly F5JOURNL Darryl Wolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Ah, but as we've discussed elsewhere on the board, not every instrument in an A-style batch has the same model designation. They just have the same body type. So Joe has 11 FONs for which he lists an A2Z as the exemplar; that does not mean every instrument in the batch was an A2Z.
    Not correct...at least from what I have seen. A FON is an order for X amount of exactly Y instruments
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    Epiphonist Masterbilt's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    I played around with Google search in the Mandolin Archive - looking for examples listed with an "A2Z FON". What I found:

    FON : s/n
    11902 : 75667
    11919 : 7x87x, 74106, 77673, 78962, 78965,
    11934 : 75620, 76010
    11949 : 75638, 75651, 77663
    11951 : 769xx, 76944, 77658, 77559
    11963 : 80515
    11971 : 74749, 74753 (listed as "A2"), 74756, 74759, 74786, 74792
    1198x : 79860
    11991 : 74791, 74946, 74948, 74956, 74971, 74987
    11995 : 79596, 79607
    11999 : 79224 (listed as "A"), 79845
    11002A: 78974 (FON "11002", I guess correlates with Spann 11002A)

    Plus this A2Z with a FON that seems a bit odd (maybe misread?):
    11029: 78977

    Within these batches the only ones not listed as "A2Z" are 74753 ("A2", refinished, snakehead, reported to have A2Z style top binding) and 79224 ("A", blacktop, snakehead, with back binding and inlaid logo).

    I also noticed that batches 11971, 1198x, 11991, 11995 seem to have sound hole rings with wood in between.

    Interesting to compare the sequence of FONs to the sequence of serial numbers.

    Felix
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    Registered User Matt Bowe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1923 A2 vs A2z...subtle differences?

    Just a note re:11971/74753 - The folks at the shop I purchased the instrument from identified it as an 1923 A2 - an oval hole snakehead with two b-w-b inlaid wood sound hole rings. It had been refinished according to them (it has a sunburst top) and had two labels with no model designation visible on the top one. Upon closer inspection after I purchased it I noticed the black top binding inside the white and found the FON was for an A2z group listed in The Archive. I consulted both Mr. Wolfe and Mr. Beimborn about this who both seemed satisfied it is actually an A2z.
    MJB

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