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Thread: Did Humans Invent Music?

  1. #51
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    True - you did. But we puny humans need to be reminded now and then.

    As to beer - Benjamin Franklin said, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." At least, I think that's what the slogan was on a T-shirt I saw in a bar once ...
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    Registered User Ribak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    I studied archaeology and I have a BA in anthropology. This statement:
    "Ancient" seems like a bit of stretch to me. The oldest known musical artifacts are some bone flutes that are only 35,000 years old, a blink in an evolutionary time." I have a few problems with. It took thousands of years for simple chopping tools (flint rocks with ~3" of cutting space) to become points (arrowheads where you get 30 feet of cutting space for every pound of material).

    There would be very little distinction that between something that resembles an Udu drum and other clay pots. Who is to say that someone didn't use pots of various sizes to make different tones and have a small primitive drum set. Not to mention that singing would be a more likely candidate for the origin of pleasing tones. We may have musical instruments, things that were used to make pleasing sounds, in museums that are mislabeled as pottery.

    The point is that we have no reason whatsoever to say that any length of human history did or did not have music. However I do not find it any sort of a stretch that it co-evolved with speech. The evolutionary process on speech is that of imitation. Mimetic (as opposed to genetic) evolution requires that an idea/sound/tool/cultural item is imitated by another person. Will stick with sounds for the explanation, so that any sound that is pleasing to a larger audience would get imitated more than a sound that isn't as well liked. AND those people that can best imitate others would be selected for genetically. A better imitator is a better learner, and better learners make for better hunters, gatherers, tool makers, musicians, writers, etc etc.

    The differences in the two opinions of this piece is so very small but I would generally side with miller more. I also think the talk about birdsong is moot point. It isn't music. Its pleasing to our ears but that doesn't make it music for the bird. Birdsong is more likely to be mating call, predator warning, or other things more directly relating to sexual selection. I really think they are confusing music and music as a concept when they do this.

  3. #53
    Registered User Ribak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    You can go back 100,000+ years and "humans" were just as intelligent as they are now. There's a common conceit that anything before the ages of written history (pre-history...prehistoric) was some kind of ignorant sub-human ...ain't it just amazing how much the brain size has increased in only 5,000 years?! Modern scientists and engineers still can't quite figure out how the Egyptians built the pyramids, or how Stonehenge was built.

    NH
    I interrupt this thread for a moment of geekery cause we totally know how they did that and its so simple its AWESOME! You can roll even large multi ton rocks on trees laid out in front and to get them to stand upright? YOU BURY THEM IN THE GROUND! then you roll the other ones on top and dig out the formation!

    Pyramids? Those have to be easy, they appear independently at least 4 times in human history. Mesoamerica, egypt, eastern europe (there is one that was confused for a hill for a very long time, until someone climbing recognized that it was a stepped pyramid structure!), and I think someplaces in asia. We're talking 0 cultural connectivity between the dates and locations of these things. Sizes, shapes, techniques varied but the basic form of four sided and triangle faced structure is just common.

    /geek

    EDIT:

    Those weird pyramids are in Bosnia. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...-Pyramids.html

    Wikipedia has 6 places for steppe pyramids. South America moche pyramids and north american native mounds. I'm dubious about the mounds. Also about how separate the south and meso-american cultures were. Yeah the distance is quite long but there are people all along that corridor down ecuador where the Inca's resided. C'est la vie.

    EDIT AGAIN:
    Never mind! the bosnian pyramid guy is a total crack pot! Whether or not that structure is really a pyramid (man built thingie) is unproven. Probably false.

  4. #54
    Registered User Laird's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/sci...?homepage=true

    "Indeed, Dr. Mache notes that songbirds have a keen sense of rhythm. Some of them can compose songs with varying rhythmic patterns (kala pramanam), including ‘silences' of set duration (“Khali” as in Tabla playing). Why do they do all this? Not just for mating but for their innate pleasure and in aesthetic pursuit? "

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    The idea that "harmony" has only been around for 1000 years is just speculation.
    Indeed, since harmony is a physical set of principles about oscillations interacting with each other. Harmony is around for approx. 13.75 billion years. Much of it is outside audible frequency ranges, but that's not harmony's fault.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Eh, semantics. Substitute "production of harmony for the sake of harmony," then, or "production of vibrations within the audio spectrum with harmonic resonance," or something like that. Yes, trees have been falling in forests for hundreds of millions of years - and making a sound each time one does, by the way - and if two fall at the same time their sounds produce some sort of harmony. I think harmony in the musical sense at least implies there was intent to produce it, which implies a desire to produce it and an ability to hear it.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    I think harmony in the musical sense at least implies there was intent to produce it, which implies a desire to produce it and an ability to hear it.
    Sure it does, but would that qualify as "invention"? If using something that is already there in a new context is called invention, then I am inventing many things every day.

    Oh well - we're not sure what qualifies as "music", now we're not sure what "inventing" is supposed to be*. The chances of answering the OP's question are fading. And who exactly is "human", anyway?

    * I am taking a stab at that, though: Venting is done frequently here on the Cafe, and you can do it better than others, thus outventing them, or you can include them in your topic, thus inventing them.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Oh, lawdy!

    I think invention could indeed include incorporating naturally occurring material, processes, etc., into something new (which may be patented, marketed, and sold, as Edison proved a thousand times over).

    I don't think the OP ever actually posed a question or expressed an opinion or did anything more than post a link to this month's article by Mr. Marcus in The Atlantic. Same with the last time, two months ago. This one has been up and down, but it's had its moments. I can hardly wait to see what next month's topic will be. Just like music, I cannot discern the intent of these posts, only their existence.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Birdsong is more likely to be mating call, predator warning, or other things more directly relating to sexual selection.
    Pretty much sums up why I play the mandolin.
    Bobby Bill

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    Registered User Cheryl Watson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Music has a definition but a lot of music today does not have all the elements of that definition, especially melody.

  11. #61

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Tichenor View Post
    I thought I'd settled this question long ago...

    ]
    Scott, this graph is dated--new man is ahead of "mandoman" and is represented with a HUGE cerebrum, and carrying a big chunk of tofu, and an accordian

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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    I think the evolution of our ability to appreciate music was touched on in the books "Your Brain on Music" and "Musicophelia".

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Oh, lawdy!
    ...
    Just like music, I cannot discern the intent of these posts, only their existence.
    That's right, I would not act as if I take any of this seriously
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwtwang View Post
    Music has a definition but a lot of music today does not have all the elements of that definition, especially melody.
    Actually, it does, just not a whole lot of it. And definitely, the melody:rhythm ratio is pretty low. Which is not to say melodic music isn't being produced, performed, and purchased, it just isn't dominating the marketplace and airwaves like it used to.

    FWIW, here is my car horn analogy. When someone honks his horn, he produces a sound. It may have musical qualities, but by itself, it is just a noise, and a pretty jarring one at that. However, if he honks his horn twice, he produces music. It has a rhythm and a melody, albeit very simple. But the net effect is a lot less jarring. That doesn't mean that leaning on the horn or honking repeatedly will produce something even more pleasant - quite the contrary, really - but that there is a big difference between one honk and two. After I realized this, I have adopted the practice of honking twice when I see a friend while driving. People may not pick up on this consciously, or spend a lot of time thinking about this, but it has an effect.

    We now return you to your previously scheduled programming, already in progress ...
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

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    Registered User pefjr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by cwtwang View Post
    Music has a definition but a lot of music today does not have all the elements of that definition, especially melody.
    I asked my son once about that lack of melody in hard Jazz. He told me the melody is there, but in some cases, one has to be a jazz musician to hear it. I took that to mean, if I can't hear it, it's 'over my head', a different language that I do not speak....yet. I like your album.
    I have the world in a jug, and the stopper in my hand.

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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    He told me the melody is there, but in some cases, one has to be a jazz musician to hear it.
    He's telling you the music is a lot better than it sounds.
    Bobby Bill

  17. #67

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    In answer to the subject, "Did Humans Invent Music?" ... yes, of course.

    Our concepts (constructs, organizing principles) are predicated on language. We "invent" these contructs. We do not invent most naturally occurring phenomena.

    The sprectrum of experience and our corresponding language is "evolving"--expanding--all the time. Jazzers are often ahead of the curve, innovators (that's why we're hip )

    "in (the) domain of perturbed brain chemistry, the cultural operating system is wiped clean and something older...more vitalistic, more in touch with the animal soul, replaces it...this is who you are"
    Last edited by catmandu2; Apr-19-2012 at 11:23am.

  18. #68

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    one has to be a jazz musician to hear it. I took that to mean, if I can't hear it, it's 'over my head',

    ...this reminds me of Ayn Rand's take on Modern Art

  19. #69

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    In order to find the beautific in a dirty ashtray, one must master the art of perception, apprehension, the experience of beauty. We can master many arts.

  20. #70
    Registered User Dave Gumbart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    So, there's a bird called the Veery. It's a thrush - related to the American Robin, Wood Thrush, etc. A family of birds noted for their lovely flute-like songs. But with the Veery's song - it's decribed as a two note song, with those notes being sung in harmony with each other. Here's one page where you can hear the song at normal speed, then slowed down: http://www.wildmusic.org/animals/thrush. Just click on "Veery." Here's a power point slide from the 'net, showing a sonogram of the song (p. 2 of that document). http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/ksch...s_IIforweb.pdf

    Another link to the song, includes regular and half-speed. http://www.math.sunysb.edu/~tony/birds/music/veery.html

    It's a cool bird.

    Dave

  21. #71

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    This humans! always thinking they are the center of the universe, and that they got all of the inventions for themselves...

    I just come back from south-west australia, spent some days in the forest with giant tingle trees and hallucinated by the musical experiments birds can do... had fun responding to them and make them confused by changing pitch, adding minor... their scales are far more interesting than our stupid tempered scale!

    I have also been living with a pig for a while, pepa (35kg) loves to put her nose on the bridge (where the sound is best) of my mandolin in the morning , and she can sing.. of course she has her own concept of rythm and tones, but i could make her sing higher or lower pitch according to my playing, faster or slower rythms... we can easily spend half an hour singing together. Her very best instrument is double-bass, she goes insane when a friend comes to play on it, all her hairs are getting up and she tries to sing with. Of course she doesn't call it music, but rrrRRr.

    We are just merely more conceptual animals but it would be a big mistake to even think that we have invented music, dancing, singing, color harmony, art and humor.

  22. #72

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by magic-marmelade View Post
    Her very best instrument is double-bass...
    Excellent taste, that Pepa...my favorite too. I'll bet she would love my bass clarinet--I'm sure she could teach me a thing or two...a la Eric Dolphy

  23. #73
    Registered User pefjr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Quote Originally Posted by magic-marmelade View Post

    I have also been living with a pig for a while, pepa (35kg) loves to put her nose on the bridge (where the sound is best) of my mandolin in the morning , and she can sing.. of course she has her own concept of rythm and tones, but i could make her sing higher or lower pitch according to my playing, faster or slower rythms... we can easily spend half an hour singing together. Her very best instrument is double-bass, she goes insane when a friend comes to play on it, all her hairs are getting up and she tries to sing with. Of course she doesn't call it music, but rrrRRr.
    She is not singing 'Beasts of England' is she?
    I have the world in a jug, and the stopper in my hand.

  24. #74
    Eschews Obfuscation mugbucket's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    I'm with Swampy:

    I think it's safe to say that humans did not invent music, but rather discovered it.
    And at the risk of dancing near the ledge of controversy, the debate in the OP's link was built on the foundational premise of music as a product of evolution. There are competing ideas. I humbly submit for your consideration:

    http://www.icr.org/article/study-sho...uely-designed/

    Ski
    Despite the high cost of living, it still remains popular...

  25. #75

    Default Re: Did Humans Invent Music?

    Well we can certainly assume this--without knowing (that is, without knowing what other intelligences may know) any more...Of course we can only know what we know, but "knowledge" is subject (limited). I'm more comfortable in the belief that humans merely invented hubris.

    I recommend "Freedom From the Known"

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