Rest strokes

[tkirkend]

Hi,

I'm curious about using rest strokes. I see a lot written about using rest strokes w/ down strokes. Do people use them with up strokes as well?

thanks everyone

[Jim Broyles]

I don't use them at all. Apparently there is a good reason to use them but I haven't figured it out yet.

[margora]

I cannot speak about popular styles but in modern classical mandolin playing, the answer is yes -- specifically, modern Italian. In this case, the pick is perpendicular to the strings and one plays a backstroke and stops at the relevant lower string. By contrast, in modern German, the orientation of the pick is 45 degrees towards the floor and essentially every down stroke would be a rest stroke (and many upstrokes following a downstroke would only strike one of the strings on the upstroke.) In modern Italian the wrist is usually very flat which facilitates a "backwards" restroke.

[tkirkend]

That's where the confusion lies for me. If a rest stroke is typically used to optimize tone and volume, and rest strokes are only picked down, if you're alternate picking wouldn't you have loud toneful notes alternating with softer notes with inferior tone?

[John Flynn]

I am no expert, just another traveller on the journey, but I would not say upstrokes have inferior tone, just softer tone, and that can be a good thing. If you always put the downstroke on the down beats, those notes should generally be a bit louder and stronger than the up beats. Otherwise you sound like a midi file or a player piano. There are exceptions, but that seems to be the case the vast majority of the time. Jody Stecher told me in a workshop once that it is almost impossible for most players (including him, and he has some serious creds) to get full volume on an upstroke if you're playing naturally and or with any kind of speed. It is technically possible, of course, but it feels really artificial. But it seems to work out to plan where your downstrokes are in relation to the music and it actually enhances the sound overall.

It was interesting this thread came up, because I had just asked about rest strokes at my last lesson with Charley Rappaport, the musical director of the Pittsburgh Mandolin Orchestra, who has over 50 years classical playing experience. He agrees with the rest stroke concept, but does not like the term, because he doesn't see it as a "rest." His take is that if one is playing as one should with a loose wrist and loose grip, the player should "imagine" that the pick actually gets a little "bounce" off the string physically below the picked string, that bounce actually beginning the upstroke. He said it probably isn't an actual bounce, but more of a feeling, a mental image. He does not hit the strings physically above the plucked string on the upstroke. The reason is that the proper, natural movement of the wrist should cause the pick to miss that string.

[Mike Bunting]

One big problem that beginners seem to have, in my experience a least, is that they don't pick downward through both strings of the course. The practice of the rest stroke can help train the muscles to play through the strings even if later on in playing you are not playing a full rest stroke.
P.S. Downstrokes should be more pronounced than upstrokes.

[margora]

"That's where the confusion lies for me. If a rest stroke is typically used to optimize tone and volume, and rest strokes are only picked down, if you're alternate picking wouldn't you have loud toneful notes alternating with softer notes with inferior tone?"

A upstroke/rest stroke is a specialized technique, to be used in specific contexts where a rest stroke is desired for musical reasons but where a downstroke might not work musically (for example, consecutive downstrokes in a fast tempo where legato is desired). Not an everyday occurrence.

"It was interesting this thread came up, because I had just asked about rest strokes at my last lesson with Charley Rappaport, the musical director of the Pittsburgh Mandolin Orchestra, who has over 50 years classical playing experience. He agrees with the rest stroke concept, but does not like the term, because he doesn't see it as a "rest." His take is that if one is playing as one should with a loose wrist and loose grip, the player should "imagine" that the pick actually gets a little "bounce" off the string physically below the picked string, that bounce actually beginning the upstroke. He said it probably isn't an actual bounce, but more of a feeling, a mental image. He does not hit the strings physically above the plucked string on the upstroke. The reason is that the proper, natural movement of the wrist should cause the pick to miss that string. "

Charlie is a very fine player and most certainly is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion, as conveyed above is different from modern German theory/practice. The relevant issues are covered in Gertrud Weyhofen's video (out of print) and also to some extent in the new video by Caterina Lichtenberg, also there is much relevant and very useful material in Keith Harris' book, "The Mandolin Game".

In modern German practice, the general rh feeling is derived from 18th century mandolin methods, and thus there is an emphasis on strong-weak beats -- downstrokes on strong beats, and upstrokes on weak beats. The typical upstroke strikes one string, not two, and there is no upstroke/rest stroke. One does not begin the upstroke until the full value of the note played by the downstroke is completed ("rest" in rest stroke, means "resting", not an actual rest of any duration and there is no mental "bouncing" to begin the upstroke as this can lead to choppiness, always a problem on the mandolin). In modern Italian, there is more emphasis on even articulation (just as there is, say, in modern classical guitar versus the lute) as opposed to obvious strong-weak. However, even in modern Italian, a upstroke/restroke is a specialized technique, as noted above.

Personally, while I use upstroke/restroke on occasion, I am very cautious in doing so, because it is very easy to over accent the note and, worse, play the string on which the pick settles (of course, one can do this too with a downstroke/restroke).

[tkirkend]

First, thanks everyone for your help. I now have two related questions:
1. how does Mike Marshall for example, or whoever, play with such amazing tone AND play so fast? Is he using rest strokes on those fast sections?
2. How does one efficiently go from say the D to the E string if using a rest stroke on the D?
Thanks again.

[margora]

"How does one efficiently go from say the D to the E string if using a rest stroke on the D?
Thanks again. "

If I am using a downstroke on the D string and the next note is on the E string, most likely I will use another downstroke on E, although there is, or rather should not be, no problem in playing an upstroke on E. I play the restroke on D, prepare the next note (in "no time", a la Keith Harris) and then play the next note on E, either with a downstroke (in which case, I imagine another string to rest on, as described by Caterina in her video) or an upstroke. Depending on the context, this might be place where I would use a restroke on the upstroke, but probably not.

[Perry]

P.S. Downstrokes should be more pronounced than upstrokes.

By gravity alone they will be.

FWIW getting your up and down strokes to be the same volume is often stressed by Mike Marshall in the Bluegrass Academy.

[tkirkend]

Is Mike Marshall a strict alternate picker or does he use economy picking (forgive me if this is strictly a guitar term)?

[Perry]

I think he would teach strict alternate picking as a good foundation but once you get to his level whatever works works.

Check out Tony Rice's right hand..... AMAZING but not strict alternate.

[Pete Martin]

IIf you always put the downstroke on the down beats, those notes should generally be a bit louder and stronger than the up beats. Otherwise you sound like a midi file or a player piano. There are exceptions, but that seems to be the case the vast majority of the time.

This puts the accent where our ears want to hear it, on the beat in 4/4 time. The flow of notes is stronger to us this way.

It was interesting this thread came up, because I had just asked about rest strokes at my last lesson with Charley Rappaport, the musical director of the Pittsburgh Mandolin Orchestra, who has over 50 years classical playing experience. He agrees with the rest stroke concept, but does not like the term, because he doesn't see it as a "rest." His take is that if one is playing as one should with a loose wrist and loose grip, the player should "imagine" that the pick actually gets a little "bounce" off the string physically below the picked string, that bounce actually beginning the upstroke.

This "bounce" described here is what I teach folks learning Monroe style downstroke playing (such as Bluegrass Stomp). If you let the pick spring back from the next string, you can use it to help eventually play downstrokes faster. It is a VERY subtle touch, but works very well!

[August Watters]

Perhaps we're not on the same page about what a "rest" stroke is. Here's how I think of it:

The "bounce" Pete and Charlie are talking about is a useful way of thinking about articulating downstrokes within an alternate-picked phrase (although it depends on string spacing!). A "rest stroke" occurs when the pick pushes through the course and rests on the next, creating an accented downstroke. It creates an accent that breaks up the phrase.

As to the questions about alternate picking, I use it as a "default setting" for both classical and bluegrass playing. Exceptions come in when you use Monroe-style phrases with all downstrokes (also useful in classical for evenness and clarity), sometimes for rest strokes, or those times when continuing in the same direction to the next course. In fiddle tunes, I don't use many exceptions to alternate picking, but in classical playing they happen often (and I probably use alternate picking more in classical playing than most classical specialists would).

The old method books can help you to internalize pick direction classical playing, which is quite different from alternate picking. I'm wary though of generalizations; there are different schools of thought in the classical world, and even within national traditions there are different approaches. So even though there's much to be gained from seeing how it's been done, at some level it all gets back to whatever works for you!

[BradKlein]

Speaking from a bluegrass/country perspective, I've seen Michael Daves use the upward rest stroke on both mandolin and guitar for the very reason that it is such a challenge to give the upstroke equal, or sometimes greater, volume and emphasis as the downstroke. If you play DOWN up DOWN up DOWN up DOWN up DOWN up things get monotonous. And it is my strong impression that top players like Marshal and Thile and Daves and others put a lot of time and effort into combatting that natural tendency, through exercises like: playing a fiddle tune and reversing the 'normal' pick direction, etc.

[neil argonaut]

By gravity alone they will be.

That's something I wonder about; Although it might seem like the obvious reason, personally I think it's got more to do with the way the wrist turns or with technique than with gravity, which I don't think has too much effect compared to the wrist energy required to pick a string.

To test this out, I tried playing standing up, then lying down, then upside down, and while due to being in an uncomfortable position it's hard to compare, to my ears anyway the downstrokes remained louder whether they were moving towards or away from the ground, and by a similar degree.

[BradKlein]

That's something I wonder about; Although it might seem like the obvious reason, personally I think it's got more to do with the way the wrist turns or with technique than with gravity, which I don't think has too much effect compared to the wrist energy required to pick a string.

FINALLY! A use for the international space station. I am now working on a proposal to NASA to see if weightlessness affects the evenness of old time fiddle tunes played in zero gravity. I may need to throw in some balalaika tunes to spread the appeal around a little. This could be big... very big!

(and may I suggest that with a name like Neil Argonaut, you would be a great asset to Mandolins in Space®)

[John Flynn]

Great little experiment Neil!

I think rather than gravity, it's the fact that on the downstroke, you have the thumb, which seems to be the strongest digit on the hand, helping "push" the pick in the direction of the thumb's strongest direction of movement. OK I know, it's not really a push, the wrist is doing the work, but you get the idea. The thumb can be very strong in supporting the pick though that wrist movement. By contrast, on the upstroke, the support for the movement is the side of the index finger. The index finger is not strong in that direction. Yes, it is probably supported by the middle finger, but it still is kind of an unnatural direction for the fingers. So it may seem like gravity, but it's really ergonomics.

[mandotopia]

I was trained by Herman Von Bernewitz in the classical tradition. The Branzoli method book does not use crosspicking at all. Rather than crosspick, you would use 3 down strokes. I realized that this technique would make bluegrass jamming difficult in fast tunes. I have never been extremely othodox about technique but Herman was very insistent that I do things the way he taught. So I learned to play w/out crosspicking (when I was working on my Branzoli) and Explored other techniques on my free time. The result is that I effectively use rest strokes without thinking about it in a Jam. When I am not taking a lead, I use rest stroke arpeggios (a modified glide stroke) to accompany other players. I think this makes me a better than average rhythm player. The use of rest strokes (and my comfort with them) allows the phrasing of my leads to be less constrained. Bottom line-becoming comfortable with the use of rest strokes makes me a better player in all styles. It is a great tool to have in the toolbox.

[JeffD]

For myself, I notice that I don't keep a mechanical rhythm with my right hand, unless I am playing something rhythmic. When the jam, or the group, has the rhythm supported and I play a melody or lead, I notice that I only move my hand when I have to. No rest stroke, no rhythmic bounce, just this note followed by this note followed by that double stop followed by tremolo ....

But in general I don't have a rhythmic style. My backup of the fiddle or harmonica is adequate, but hardly inspired. And for that I do see that I do rest strokes when there is nothing in the music to do for a beat.