Scales encouragement please

[Cheryl Watson]

Learning scales may be good for learning fingering and getting the coordination working between your right and left hand, but unless you apply a specific scale to an authentic situation where it will be used, in context, such as an improvised blues solo, the scale will be disjointed from what you actually play.

I have really found this to be true, as far back as when I was taking guitar lessons as a child and my teacher would have me practice my scales and then, separately, they would teach me songs (mostly strumming and singing) and instrumental fingerstyle. They never delved into how the scales could be applied to lead guitar; therefore, the scales became unusable to me and boring to practice, so I stopped and just learned solo fingerstyle and vocal accompaniment with memorization. It is why lead guitar remained a mystery to me. I would memorize a copied solo and play it but I would hit incorrect notes under pressure and stress because I did not know the scales they had been created over. In other words, I would get lost on the fingerboard very easily.

It is the same principle as teaching jazz/swing chords: They need to be taught in context, with usable chord patterns with song/instrumental examples. I remember knowing how to finger diminished chords and such but I didn't know how to use them unless they were memorized in a song. I really did not know, at that time, how it "worked."

I teach music now, and I find that it works so much better to teach scales and chords and riffs for my guitar and mandolin students and for myself, of course, because I am also still learning and striving to become a better musician over time.

[JonZ]

It is the same principle as teaching jazz/swing chords: They need to be taught in context, with usable chord patterns with song/instrumental examples. I remember knowing how to finger diminished chords and such but I didn't know how to use them unless they were memorized in a song. I really did not know, at that time, how it "worked."

I am inclined to do a little bit of systematic memorization, mixed with a lot of songs--especially for jazz. The reason is that if you want to create, for example, a chord solo, you really need to know a lot of voicings.

If you learn chord theory, it is not too difficult to know hundreds of voicings, or to be able to create them when needed. Then you can incorporate them into tunes and make them fluid. Once you learn a core of maybe 15 voicings, every other chord is just a matter of moving one tone. With a small amount of effort, you can have a chord encyclopedia in your head.

Of course playing tunes is what it's all about. By all means play a lot of tunes!

[deadhead7]

I agree with the last reply. I break it up in 30-45 minute sessions. doing it every day is the key i think. im no master by no means but it does keep you into it and i find that it does make you a better picker. I love it and hope to improve everyday. hope the best for ya. mark

[pefjr]

Learning scales may be good for learning fingering and getting the coordination working between your right and left hand, but unless you apply a specific scale to an authentic situation where it will be used, in context, such as an improvised blues solo, the scale will be disjointed from what you actually play.

Could you expand on that thought some. Take the 'G' mando scale for example, the blues 'G' scale is different and only shares 3 of the same notes.

While I got you, another separate question is: Do you find yourself sometimes in a different scale than the one you started in? I can play this popular "Bury me beneath the Willow Tree", start in G and if not careful, be a D scale before two verses are over then in a completely different scale on the third. That has not happened in any other musical piece,.... strange.

[JeffD]

Well sometimes a tune will seem to go into a different key briefly, as perhaps it goes to a IV chord or V chord, and some tunes actually do switch to another key in the B part. I know several tunes that are A major in the A part and Am in the B part. And I know some the otherway too.

I play "Bury Me" and its in one key. Play it with an accompaniment, perhaps a guitar backup, and see how you do.

[JeffD]

Could you expand on that thought some. Take the 'G' mando scale for example, the blues 'G' scale is different and only shares 3 of the same notes.
.

I am not sure what you mean. The G scale is the same notes on every instrument.

[pefjr]

I am not sure what you mean. The G scale is the same notes on every instrument.

True. I was not clear on her statement of applying a scale. She must have been talking about a blues scale for the blues solo. ??

[JeffD]

Scales are good to learn, good to play, good to hear yourself playing, good to absorb, and it is absoutely true that you will rarely if ever as in probably never play a full scale in a song or tune.

Absolutely play tunes as well. If all you want is to be able to play this or that tune, you probably can do that without learning scales. But if you want to play music, you have to get scales.

Scales are good because you absorb how each note works in the tune, what the fifth note does that the fourth note doesn't do, etc. You absorb it from repeated hearings, repeated playings. Your fingers get coordinated with your ears, and if you could sing along it would even be better.

I am going to guess that some, if not many of the folks who hit a plateau and don't know how to take it to the next level are folks who learned how to play a pile of individual tunes and never learned how to play music.

[stringalong]

Mike Bunting wrote that Miss Grimke, the author of this thread, must be young. I'm old. I played piano for 50 years and resisted scales all that time. With the mandolin, though, I love playing scales. They are beautiful. And there's another nice thing about playing the three I do (D, G, and A scales since those are the keys I mostly play in). I can actually see, feel, and hear my progress, and yes, it's gradual. I practice 10-20 minutes a day on scales, including the diatonic chords in, so far, the keys of C and D. You might try different rhythms occasionally with your scales. Do you think you are maybe practicing too many scales all at once? I suggest playing no more than 3 for a long, long time. (I've been on my three for about a year, and am finally clean -- most of the time -- at a moderate speed.) Anyway, that's what I do.

[August Watters]

I am going to guess that some, if not many of the folks who hit a plateau and don't know how to take it to the next level are folks who learned how to play a pile of individual tunes and never learned how to play music.

Yes - I've worked with a lot of students who need help breaking a plateau, and often it's as you've described -- the fingers have memorized a bunch of tunes (often from written versions), but the ear is not yet fully engaged. It's possible to memorize a bunch of fingerings, but if they're not really connected to inner hearing, it can be difficult to take the next step to improvising variations or learning more tunes. There's a limit to what we can learn by rote.

The solution is usually a little bit of scale analysis, to understand how things are connected, and practicing scales to reinforce that learning and connect the fingers to the ears. Suddenly the trees become a forest!

[Miss Grimke]

Am old, and I think that makes me more impatient. If I were younger I'd think I had all the time in the world. So much good advice here. I have been working on 2-3 scales at a time and wondering if I'd ever "get" them. Agree that scales on the mandolin are more fun and make more intuitive sense than on guitar (quicker to see that patterns rather than just memorize, though still not fast enough!)

[UsuallyPickin]

The reward for a lot the scale chord and arpeggio practice is when somebody says lets play 1. a song you don't know or 2. a song you know but in a key you don't usually play it in you say OK! let's do that and you pull off something that is fun, musically pleasing, and gets a nod from the folks you are playing with. Yeah that's the reason.

[OldSausage]

I think what August said is key. While you're practicing scales you also want to be analyzing them and thinking about the relationship of each note to the root, and all the other notes. Think about chord arpeggios and voicing in relation to the scale too, and how melodies are created within the scale space.

[Rosemary Philips]

I think what August said is key. While you're practicing scales you also want to be analyzing them and thinking about the relationship of each note to the root, and all the other notes. Think about chord arpeggios and voicing in relation to the scale too, and how melodies are created within the scale space.

Huh?

[farmerjones]

I think what August said is key. While you're practicing scales you also want to be analyzing them and thinking about the relationship of each note to the root, and all the other notes. Think about chord arpeggios and voicing in relation to the scale too, and how melodies are created within the scale space.

Yes. For instance, if you have an intimate relation with the G major scale, writing new and/or orignal work (in G) is not above you. Throw four dice on a table. Arrange them as they lay left to right. 1 = G, 2 = A, 3 = B, etc. You've got a phrase. Now you've got the option to play the phrase twice or something else. Maybe an inversion? Maybe roll again. Rarely will you find somethings hasn't been done with the given scale. There's only seven notes, after all. Children's building blocks (or dice) can help you see melody construction is not difficult nor a mystery. BTW to finish your tune, put four phrases togther. Either repeat or put four more phrases together. 4 (quarter)notes by 4 measures is a 16 bar 4/4 tune.
Don't forget to record it, for copyright protection.

ps - so the purists don't attack, end each half with a G.

[JeffD]

I have practiced scales while singing the do re me solfege. It has a lot of benefits. I find though that solfege, for the age I grew up in, seems like just something more to learn. Years ago I think many more people had a grounding in solfege and it was second nature.

So I do this. I sometimes sing the numbers as I go up and down scales. Just counting. The idea is to hear and feel that "four" does the same thing in every scale, even though what note "four" is will be different in every scale.

Its good as well to do double stops for each note of the major scale. Double stops that keep to the appropriate chords. (One, four and five are major, the rest are minor, except for seven which is diminished. It sound complicated, but really mess around with it and you can hear what I mean.)

[pefjr]

Its good as well to do double stops for each note of the major scale. Double stops that keep to the appropriate chords. (One, four and five are major, the rest are minor, except for seven which is diminished. It sound complicated, but really mess around with it and you can hear what I mean.)

This leads to a world of trouble ... or pleasure. Depends if you have the time, it has been beneficial to me. I first looked at the harmonized scales a month or so ago. At first I was scared to death when I looked at all those double stops, but now I love playing around with it and incorporating some into some tunes I have played. Harmony adds so much to the tune, IMO a la Roland White. There are a couple that have a dead middle string that looked hard, but it is a neat trick to just slant your fretted finger back across and deaden the middle string. I have only focused on G and C mainly, and so far and found those easy to add. Some of those are chords G and C and some repeat like 3/5, 4/7/, 5/9. I recommend it, and those scales can be downloaded for TABEDIT. at mandozine.com

[OldSausage]

Huh?

Was there some particular bit that didn't make sense? I should have written "chords, arpeggios" instead of "chord arpeggios", it's true.

[bobby bill]

The best example I can relate to personally, is the ability to type (aka keyboard). I tested myself online and I am good to 65 WPM. Its been a lot of years since I had to think about where a perticuilar key is. I don't deceive myself that my fingers know the keyboard, but that is how it feels.

This is a good example of "muscle memory." I also type quite a bit and do not need to look at the keyboard. But if I'm asked where a key is while away from the keyboard (for example, a crossword puzzle clue), I often have to put my hands on the table and "feel" where the key is. I can't seem to access that information directly from my head, but have to go to the muscle. (Please, no muscle-head comments.) I know there is no memory in one's muscles, but I think it is stored in an area that is not as consciously available.

[Mike Bunting]

Practicing scales also gives you a great opportunity to work on your tone.

[tomgun]

I grew up learning scales and arpeggios on violin, unenthusiastically. I still do them, now enthusiastically, because it is what I grew up doing. I know it helps me find harmonies and melodies without thinking.

However, I don't see any reason why tunes wouldn't be any less effective than scales. It seems they would be even more useful because they are musical and being musical is my goal. Play a tune in all twelve keys, just as you would the scales.

I do see a reason to keep full two or three-scale arpeggios. They have helped me find harmonies to anything I play and improv possibilities.

I don't see a use for particularly learning, for example, a blues scale. When I want to learn to play blues I learn a Buddy Guy tune and then make other tunes sound like that. I do know music theory - I just don't use it for playing nor think about it much. For rock and their pentatonic stuff, I don't think which five notes I need for whatever key I'm in, I just make it sound like rock as best as I can.

All of this is just an experiment of one. Experiment.

[August Watters]

I grew up learning scales and arpeggios on violin, unenthusiastically. I still do them, now enthusiastically, because it is what I grew up doing. I know it helps me find harmonies and melodies without thinking.

However, I don't see any reason why tunes wouldn't be any less effective than scales. It seems they would be even more useful because they are musical and being musical is my goal. Play a tune in all twelve keys, just as you would the scales.

tomgun, you have an advantage than many folks don't have -- an intuitive understanding of scale construction. Since you can already find melodies and harmonies without thinking, could this be the result of all your earlier scale practice?

[Rosemary Philips]

Was there some particular bit that didn't make sense? I should have written "chords, arpeggios" instead of "chord arpeggios", it's true.

No, it all makes sense. I was tired when I read it and it struck me funny, so I thought I'd try to be humorous. Yeah, that was a big success...

[JeffD]

Practicing scales also gives you a great opportunity to work on your tone.

And agility, and tremolo if you want.

[tomgun]

. . . Since you can already find melodies and harmonies without thinking, could this be the result of all your earlier scale practice?

That's the million dollar question. In my case, I think it is the result of my earlier practice but that's what I did. I can't change that. Now, I'm not convinced it was the most efficient way to learn.

The example I use to reason it out is the case of singers. There have been plenty of singers who can sing with the best and didn't go the scale, mode, etc route. And my idea of an instrument is that it is just a voice. (I'm a work in progress with a long way to go. I'll let you know when I'm perfect. )