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Thread: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

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    Default Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    I'm looking for insight into a question that has me stumped. Perhaps some of you can help.

    Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community? Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?

    This is not a rant but a genuine question. More to the point, what have other thriving mandolin orchestras (I'm in Seattle) done to successfully attract new members?

    Do people just not know about regional mandolin orchestras?
    Do people think we only play dorky music?
    Do people think they're not slick enough at sight-reading?
    Do people just prefer more improvizational genres?
    Do people not want to pay the membership dues?

    If you were going to run an outreach campaign to attract new members, what do you think would be most likely to work? Free seminars on sight-reading? Getting access to the band and orchestra geeks in the schools? Getting local teachers (who may be too busy to join) to send us their students? Playing gigs with local bluegrass bands? Or should we just stay small?

    I'd love to hear what other mandolin orchestras have done to build their organizations.

    Paul Beidler

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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    When you figure it out please let us know.

    We have an orchestra of about 10-12 very dedicated players.
    It seems that new players came to us when we were doing regular
    concerts that were open to the public. We're not doing as many of those
    types of concerts these days.

    Also, we found that the many bluegrass mandolin players in the area, either
    didn't read music, and/or didn't have any interest in the mandolin orchestra concept.

    We have a dedicated 10-12 players plus an incredible conductor, and we play some really cool music.
    It would make an interesting topic for a workshop at the upcoming 2012 CMSA convention.

    Thoughts anyone else?

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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    I think a big part of it is that mandolin players are generally more like cats than dogs.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    This is the organisation out of which came our one which is full of folkies / classical / bedroom players.
    I think I'm the only player, of the 27 so far, who does BG, folk & classical.

    Random thoughts and suggestions;

    By having the scores and MP3s out there ahead of time (on that site; arrangements by Matt Norman) it's easier for our people new to ensemble playing to bone up before hand.

    It may be an idea to convert to Tablature for people coming from BG/ folk background who often use that rather than standard notation.

    Not much room for tearing off taking breaks and trying out your own licks in an ensemble setting.

    People do assume an 'orchestra' or 'ensemble' means it's going to be classical and maybe a bit formal. Need to pop that weasel without making it look like you're dweebs trying to 'get hip with the kids' or making serious players think it's some joke or sub-standard ensemble. High quality but accessible with support and enjoyable is a good balance to aim for.

    Make sure there's room in the itinerary for relaxing / socialising.

    Make sure people can get support from other members in learning to get over the start-up hurdles.

    Change people between 'desks' so the good ones aren't always only in the 1sts. Helps to pull the overall level up if you've strong players moving in to the backing sections, and stops too much prima-donna behaviour or snootiness in the more capable players. If done right it also recognises the strengths of these better players, making them more confident that they are seen as good, so preventing too much friction and pecking-order displays.

    'Steal' violinists from orchestras and lure them over to the dark side of fretted instruments.
    Last edited by Beanzy; Jan-01-2012 at 7:58am.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    I think the bit about "orchestra" leads many to think "classical" music. Perhaps the vernacular should be "ensemble".

    I play in a small ensemble based out of a wonderful community music school. There are six of us. Four mandolin players, myself on Mandola and an octave player who doubles on mando. As we enter our second year as a group I have to say we are a more balanced group with two others sharing an octave mandolin and getting the group thinking about harmonies and chords.

    Perhaps as more groups like ours appear in public more players will be drawn to this format.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "I'm looking for insight into a question that has me stumped. Perhaps some of you can help.

    Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community? Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?

    This is not a rant but a genuine question. More to the point, what have other thriving mandolin orchestras (I'm in Seattle) done to successfully attract new members?"

    Hi Paul,

    These are all very good questions.

    I play (mandola most of the time, sometimes mandolin, occasionally something else like renaissance lute) with the Providece Mandolin Orchestra. I've been with the PMO since 2003, the same year I started playing mandolin -- however, I played (and still play classical guitar) for many (30+ years) prior to the mandolin, and play that instrument at an advanced (prof.) level.

    The PMO played at CMSA this year, two original pieces (a piece by Victor Kioulaphides, which was a US premiere; a piece by Owen Hartford, a world premiere; and one of my arrangements, of Astor Piazzolla). After our performance, I met a member of the Seattle group (Sue, a lovely person), and we had a discussion about the state of MO's in the US, which touched upon some of your questions. Several years ago I also met Alan Jacobson and also had a long conversation with him about the Seattle group and mandolin in general, so I am famiiar with some of your history, including recent.

    During my conversation with Sue the issue of guitars-in-MOs came up. I asked whether there were guitarists in the SMO and my recollection is that she said not at present. Now, I checked your website, and it is clear that you welcome classical guitarists -- but the website also says that MOST (not ALL) of your pieces have parts for guitar. None of the ensember photos appear to have guitars, but I can't be certain.

    In any case, if you want to add members, this is something you can do readily because, as I am sure you know, Seattle is one of the best places in the US (actually, in the world) for classical guitar. If you can tap into this community (via, say, the Seattle Classical Guitar Society) I am sure you will get very good players who certainly can read (whether they can sight read complicated parts is another mattter, but reading per se is not an issue). The classical guitar world is shifting (pretty sharply) towards ensemble music and I think you can take advantage of this. I think you will also find that, eventually, some guitarists will gravitate to the mandolin (that is what happened in my case), especially those that have some experience playing with a pick.

    There is, though, a cost to this benefit -- you will have to amend your repertoire. ALL of the pieces will have to have guitar parts, not just SOME of them. Simply put, you can't ask people to sit out. Some time ago the PMO was offered the opportunity to play the Mike Marshall mandolin concerto, which I believe the SMO has performed. We turned it down, because there are no guitar parts (as soon as Mike writes some, I am sure we will play it).

    More generally, the guitar parts in the standard historical MO repertoire -- early 20th century stuff, in particular -- are, in a word, absolutely awful -- badly written for the guitar, usually, and no fun for the guitarist. But the good news is that there is a vast modern repertoire, mostly European/Australian and some American (e.g. Kioulaphides) with excellent, well-written guitar parts. The PMO currently plays NONE of the standard historical MO repertoire (and never will, at least with its current conductor, thank God). I don't know everthing that you are playing, so don't interpret the above as critique -- my point is that if you import some good, contemporary classical guitarists, and give them something interesting to play, you will necessarily be giving your mandolin-family instruments something interesting to play, and this may attract more mandolin-family performers, since the music will soundm, well, more modern. The guitarists are likely to know composers, another good thing to tap into.

    I wouldn't worry about the bluegrassers, or make too many concessions. The PMO certainly is willing to consider new members, and from time to time people sit in. But we don't change the repertoire to make it more inviting (or easier) and we don't give people tab. If they can handle the parts, great, if they can't, whatever.

    Lastly, there is always Craigslist. The PMO recently recruitied an outstanding string bassist this way.
    Robert A. Margo

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by beidlerp View Post
    Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community? Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?
    I think Beanzy hit the nail on the head and in much more detail. I do think, however, that the prime reason for players of other folk genres is the emphasis (or impression thereof) that they have to read music. The other aspect is that they want to play in smaller ensembles and play the music that excites them. The third reason is that there are only so many hours in the day and most people -- even the top notch players -- have day jobs and families.

    I was for many years in the New York Mandolin Orchestra. I no longer play since i live over 1 hour away and rarely go to the city. We did have some excellent players when I was there -- Barry Mitterhoff was concertmaster. I think he occasionally plays the soloist parts if asked but he is very busy touring now. Other excellent players in the area were either too busy or did not read or prefer to play bluegrass or jazz.
    Jim

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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    perhaps the reading of music is some of it, but i do think that there is a socia-cultural hurdle that both sides need to make. while i was still living in the ny metro area i approached several mandolin orchestras about participating and i cannot any one of them was welcoming. (no one even asked if i could read music)

    while you won't attract folks who play mandolin for a living you might attract some very gifted, music reading individuals with a more open and welcoming outlook. and it's not only with classical folks. if you go to celtic or irish sessions things are a big tense also with the regulars not welcoming outsiders with open arms either. same with bluegrass folks. and then the word gets around.

    and for what it is worth, i have a formal classical background which includes training at several very well known conservatories and performances in some pretty impressive halls. not something that i tell folks as this sometimes puts folks off. unfortunately music seems to have social boundaries too. shame.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "I was for many years in the New York Mandolin Orchestra. I no longer play since i live over 1 hour away and rarely go to the city. We did have some excellent players when I was there -- Barry Mitterhoff was concertmaster. I think he occasionally plays the soloist parts if asked but he is very busy touring now. Other excellent players in the area were either too busy or did not read or prefer to play bluegrass or jazz. "

    As Jim's comment implies, there are always idiosyncratic reasons why someone plays with a group, or not. The PMO rehearses in Providence and I live in Boston. Roundtrip door to door is 100 miles, and we rehearse every week.

    On the other hand, in the 2008-09 academic year I was on sabbatical (my day job is economics professor) at the Russell Sage Foundation in Manhattan, living on the upper east side (64th and 3rd). My good friend Steve Antonelli played mandocello from time to time with the New York Mandolin Orchestra, and invited me to sit in on one of their performances, which I did (sight-reading). That was the only time that year that I played with the NYMO. Distance had nothing to do with it -- I lived around the corner from the relevant subway, and it was, I think 2 subway stops to get to where the NYMO rehearsed. I have friends in the NYMO but the music (arrangements from the string orchestra literature) did not appeal. Instead, I played with Steve Antonelli's group, the New York Mandolin ENSEMBLE, which Victor K. also plays with, plus many other good players and good repertoire -- a total delight.
    Robert A. Margo

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Bob: I think that after hearing PMO at CMSA, I can say that that orchestra you play in ranks one of the top mandolin ensembles around. The music is interesting and quite suited to the instruments. There is truly nothing really wrong with string orchestra repertoire but there are things that work quite nicely on out plucked instruments.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "There is truly nothing really wrong with string orchestra repertoire but there are things that work quite nicely on out plucked instruments. "

    Hi Jim, of course I agree. In about a month the PMO is going to perform one of the Brandenburg concertos (#3) I just wasn't into what the NYMO specifically was doing back in 2008 -- in other words, I was agreeing with one of your points (you have to like the repertoire enough to cover the costs of rehearsing, otherwise why bother?)
    Robert A. Margo

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    Smile Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "Instead, I played with Steve Antonelli's group, the New York Mandolin ENSEMBLE, which Victor K. also plays with, plus many other good players and good repertoire -- a total delight. "

    Margora-

    What is the repertoire of the NY Mandolin Ensemble like? What composers besides Victor's (I really enjoy his music, too)?

    Thanks,

    Jory
    Jory Ellen

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    The SMO does recruitment via its Web site and Craigslist. We actually do have new people coming in the door fairly often, but we also have a high churn rate: people will show up, attend a few rehearsals, maybe even play a gig or two, and then fall off the map. Sometimes we know the reason -- people's jobs or other life situations may change, after all -- but often we don't know, or at least I don't. There are also several great players in town who will show up if we're doing something cool -- like a gig with Mike Marshall or Carlo Aonzo -- but aren't interested enough to play on our other gigs.

    If we knew more of the reasons why people don't choose to stay with us for the long term, we might gain some insight into what we're doing wrong.

    I don't think it hurts to try to recruit bluegrass musicians, but I'd also want to look for people who played other instruments in school bands or orchestras while they were growing up, and are now picking up the mandolin. Most of our long-term members have that kind of background. In a group like ours, I think the ability to follow a conductor is even more important than how well you play.

    It also might not hurt to reach out to instructors in town. Geoff W. and Alan J. will send students our way, but I don't know which other mandolin teachers (a) teach using notation; (b) would think of referring students to an ensemble like ours.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "What is the repertoire of the NY Mandolin Ensemble like? What composers besides Victor's (I really enjoy his music, too)?"

    It is very eclectic -- some original works for mandolin ensemble; some arrangements, pop and otherwise; some straight classical. In the 2008 performance we did Victor's "Hues of Dusk" and several of Steve's original works for mandolin ensemble (his music has celtic/pop influences, very well written and idiomatic). We also did my arrangement of three galliards by John Dowland for renaissance lute (which I played) and mandolin ensemble; and several arrangements by Bob Rose, one of the founders of the NYME (no longer with the group, I understand), including a great version of Jobim's "Aguas de Marco" (Waters of March) with a vocal by Bob's wife. Plus a Mozart flute quartet (with the flute part played by one of Bob's friends, a professional player). There was a jazz piece (by Bob) and a even a bluegrass gospel set.

    Steve has a great knack for putting together programs that win over an audience and are great fun for the performers. He also has a knack for attracting real strong players -- in the 2008 performance, the bass player, I think, was just finishing up a run in the Broadway pit band for "Rent"; Bob Rose was a studio guitarist in NYC before retiring; the percussionist was also a Broadway pit musician (see above re: the flutist). Then there was Steve's friend Khabu, who is fabulous on smaller 4-string instruments like the uke and the cavaquino.

    While I am partial to the PMO for obvious reasons, we are a pretty specialized group and I think the NYME is in many ways a better model for mandolin ensembles wishing to diversify beyond the standard MO repertoire AND attract good players. The idea, in other words, is to do a few larger ensemble pieces that may be notated, but then break into smaller groups that showcase particular talents, which may be non-classical.

    The PMO is doing a joint gig with the NYME late this coming spring, not sure what we will be playing yet.

    One last note: I've twice done Terry Riley's "In C" with Steve on mandolins, great fun.
    Robert A. Margo

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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "I don't think it hurts to try to recruit bluegrass musicians, but I'd also want to look for people who played other instruments in school bands or orchestras while they were growing up, and are now picking up the mandolin. Most of our long-term members have that kind of background. In a group like ours, I think the ability to follow a conductor is even more important than how well you play."

    This is a very good and highly relevant point. The PMO has such types as well (such as our concermaster, who played French horn when young). Following a conductor is obviously a critical skill. That said this skill can be learned fairly quickly (I had, as noted, a background in classical guitar and it did not include working with conductors).
    Robert A. Margo

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by margora View Post
    Following a conductor is obviously a critical skill. That said this skill can be learned fairly quickly (I had, as noted, a background in classical guitar and it did not include working with conductors).
    Sure, but as a pro-level performer you had a highly developed sense of rhythm, tempo and dynamics. Learning to follow a conductor's lead for those elements would be easier for someone with your background than for a person with less musical experience.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    "Sure, but as a pro-level performer you had a highly developed sense of rhythm, tempo and dynamics. Learning to follow a conductor's lead for those elements would be easier for someone with your background than for a person with less musical experience. "

    Point taken, and fair enough.

    "There are also several great players in town who will show up if we're doing something cool -- like a gig with Mike Marshall or Carlo Aonzo -- but aren't interested enough to play on our other gigs."

    This is also an important point. In all honesty, this does not happen with the PMO, and we do our share of gigs with Carlo and the like. Part of the reason is that we wouldn't let people play unless they had rehearsed regularly (on rare occasions we do if the person is an excellent reader and player with lots of ensemble experience and we need s/he to fill out a section, eg. David Miller). On the SMO gigs without Carlo or Mike -- that is, a normal gig not a special one -- what would you have the great players in town who otherwise don't show up do? Would they be doing something special -- say a featured solo, or one of their own pieces or something else they like -- or would they be just part of the band?
    Robert A. Margo

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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Hello Paul and others,

    I'm not far from the Philadelphia area where there are two mandloin ensembles. I have every intention of joining one, the other or both once my skill level is such that I think I'm ready, and when my schedule lightens up a bit to allow such a committment. But here's where my questions for you come in. I would like to know, for your group and others who might like to comment, what skill level is necessary, and how much of a time committment is needed.

    As for my skills, I read music reasonably well, to the point that I can transcribe to notation from ear, as long as I have an instrument in hand (mandloin or piano) to work it through. As a young person (many years ago) I played in a youth symphony (trumpet), so I get the ensemble playing/conductor issues but will be very rusty at first. My mandolin skills are less developed but I am working on it. I can read, but my sight-reading is slow (I would need to practice a piece prior to playing with a group at-tempo or even near it). My tremolo needs lots of work. So, how much would someone like me have to improve before I could even think about auditioning for a mandloin orchestra? What skills must I master before I can consider it? I think being in an orchestra would help my playing greatly, as well as my playing-confidence-level, but I need to be good enough to participate first.

    My second question has to do with time committment. Are these orchestras year-round or just certain months? How frequently are rehersals held?

    Perhaps there are others like myself who want to do this, but are not aware of the answers to questions like these. Is there anything else you would want an aspiring orchestra member to know? There may be others like myself, perhaps in your area, reading these posts.

    Best wishes on this. I have a CD of the Providence Mandolin Orchestra that is a real favorite of mine. The potential to play with one of the mandolin groups in the Philadelphia area in the future was one of the reasons I chose this great little instrument.

    Bob
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by margora View Post
    On the SMO gigs without Carlo or Mike -- that is, a normal gig not a special one -- what would you have the great players in town who otherwise don't show up do? Would they be doing something special -- say a featured solo, or one of their own pieces or something else they like -- or would they be just part of the band?
    I'm getting the hint, I think. Brian Oberlin is doing really creative programs with the Oregon Mandolin Orchestra that feature local as well as national talent. We've worked with a local flute soloist and a fantastic soprano soloist (she'll be on our new CD), both of whom happen to be married to orchestra members ... but if we offered a spotlight to a local mandolin cat (on the condition that he/she also play in the ensemble for the rest of the gig), that would create some more interest and possibly increase our audience reach, and maybe even help out with recruitment. I don't know that we'll end up directly recruiting any of the cats on a permanent basis, but we'd be building in a higher profile for our group.
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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Clark View Post
    So, how much would someone like me have to improve before I could even think about auditioning for a mandloin orchestra? What skills must I master before I can consider it? I think being in an orchestra would help my playing greatly, as well as my playing-confidence-level, but I need to be good enough to participate first.
    I can't speak for the Philadelphia groups, but you sound like just the kind of person we are looking for. Ever considered moving to Seattle?
    My second question has to do with time committment. Are these orchestras year-round or just certain months? How frequently are rehersals held?
    We rehearse weekly. We used to take summers off, but just in the past couple of years, folks have been rehearsing year round.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    I can't speak for the Philadelphia groups, but you sound like just the kind of person we are looking for. Ever considered moving to Seattle?
    How I wish I could! I love Seattle. That beautiful public library alone is enough to make me want to move there. But alas, I am anchored in place.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by margora View Post
    The classical guitar world is shifting (pretty sharply) towards ensemble music and I think you can take advantage of this. I think you will also find that, eventually, some guitarists will gravitate to the mandolin (that is what happened in my case), especially those that have some experience playing with a pick.

    There is, though, a cost to this benefit -- you will have to amend your repertoire. ALL of the pieces will have to have guitar parts, not just SOME of them. Simply put, you can't ask people to sit out.
    Our mandobassist has some contacts in the classical guitar world, so I suppose that if we wanted to make inroads into classical guitar we could ask him about it. We have an on-and-off mandolinist who's also a performing blues guitarist and we'd gladly use her on guitar, but thus far it hasn't quite worked out that way, and I think she's been more interested in playing her mandolin when she's with us. (Now that I think of it, however, perhaps if we arranged a few pieces for blues guitar/vocal and mandolin ensemble, we could feature her in a concert...)

    Anyhow, if we find guitarists who are willing and able, from the get-go, to double on mandolin or bass, then we needn't perform an entire overhaul of our repertoire to accommodate them.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    Quote Originally Posted by beidlerp View Post
    I'm looking for insight into a question that has me stumped. Perhaps some of you can help.

    Why is it that a thriving mandolin orchestra seems to have difficulty reaching out to the many fantastic bluegrass players in the community? Why are bluegrass, celtic, jazz, and other players seemingly ambivalent about an orchestra devoted solely to their chosen instrument that exists right in their community?

    This is not a rant but a genuine question. More to the point, what have other thriving mandolin orchestras (I'm in Seattle) done to successfully attract new members?

    Do people just not know about regional mandolin orchestras?
    Do people think we only play dorky music?
    Do people think they're not slick enough at sight-reading?
    Do people just prefer more improvizational genres?
    Do people not want to pay the membership dues?

    If you were going to run an outreach campaign to attract new members, what do you think would be most likely to work? Free seminars on sight-reading? Getting access to the band and orchestra geeks in the schools? Getting local teachers (who may be too busy to join) to send us their students? Playing gigs with local bluegrass bands? Or should we just stay small?

    I'd love to hear what other mandolin orchestras have done to build their organizations.

    Paul Beidler
    It seems you got a lot of useful feedback already, but as one of those pesky ambivalent bluegrassers (though no claim to being fantastic) I'll share my thoughts. I was asked by a local teacher to join the mandolin orchestra he organizes here, and politely declined. For starters I don't read standard notation (but am very comfortable with tab). I also enjoy the sonic interplay of mandolin with guitar, fiddle, etc. It's the contrast of mandolin with those instruments that draws me to it.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    if you are looking to recruit, have an open house, an open rehearsal and post notices at all the local music haunts, including music stores, open miss, jams, etc. the atmosphere should be open friendly and inviting. like they say, you attract more bees with honey. folks also like to know what they are getting themselves into.
    "your posts ... very VERY opinionated ...basing your opinion/recommendations ... pot calling ...kettle... black...sarcasm...comment ...unwarranted...unnecessary...."

  25. #25
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Orchestra Recruiting

    I suspect its little different from any community orchestra, except that there are so many more standard orchestral musicians to recruit from.

    If there were a mandolin orchestra/ensemble/quartet/club within driving distance I would be there.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    funny....

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