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Thread: Seisun or Session?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    England and America: Two nations separated by a common language.

    What gets under my skin is the common use (misuse?) of 'Celtic'. The record stores are overrun with 'Celtic' CDs featuring highly processed New Age synthesizer music with The Windswept Woman on the cover. I had one woman come up on a break to tell me she was learning 'Celtic' in her language class.
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  2. #27
    Registered User Tom C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hanson View Post
    It's ' CENTRE ' in the UK. we should know, it's our language.

    Dave H


    Good point. We just fixed the spelling.

  3. #28
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyes View Post
    As for "Craic", the Irish invented that word and it's meaning. Since "Crack" has several different meanings in English, none of which are related to "Craic", then the Irish spelling makes more sense. English has all sorts of words that sound alike and are spelled differently (and vice versa.)
    I'm not so sure about that, quite sure i've heard (possibly on here) that "craic" originated as "crack" in lowland scots, then ulster scots, then in the rest of ireland, and even as late as the 70's irish writers/songwriters etc would often spell it "crack" before the spelling was gaelicised.

  4. #29
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Spelling as such is a late artificial implant in Celtic culture. Everything was just spoken, heard and memorized (stories, contracts, music), because verbal/aural reproduction conveyed more of the real life behind the information than writing could (they invented reality TV long ago). Therefore, from a Celtic standpoint, any spelling of craic/crack is legal as long as the pronunciation is lively and reflects the fun you had/will have.

    Now go on and wonder how Irish triplets should be written in standard notation...
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  5. #30
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    to be honest it was more the bit about the Irish inventing the word and it's meaning that I disagreed with, the way it is spelt is quite irrelevant but can give us a hint as to where the word came from.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    As can 'spelt' versus 'spelled'.
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  7. #32
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim2723 View Post
    As can 'spelt' versus 'spelled'.
    Yeah, I forgot you spelt spelt spelled in America

  8. #33
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    We spell spelt spelt, but it's spelt spelled spelt, not spelled spelled spelt.
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  9. #34
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    gotcha, we tend to spell them both spelt here.

  10. #35
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    spilt my tea at that...
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  11. #36
    Registered User lconole's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim2723 View Post
    We spell spelt spelt, but it's spelt spelled spelt, not spelled spelled spelt.
    Thanks for that ... still chuckling 5 minutes after the first time I read it. Though ... maybe the Guinness is responsible for that (the chuckling)?

  12. #37
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Spilt tea is better than spilt spelt.

    But on a serious note, can someone explain why, in Irish literature of fifty or more years ago, the traditional language of Ireland is commonly called Gaelic while many Irish friends today refer to it as Irish or the Irish Language? Has the term Gaelic fallen out of favor (favour) for some reason? Perhaps it's an attempt to be more specific? Or is it some fashionable trend? I have - quite innocently and unintentionally I assure you - apparently insulted a few young Irish visitors to America who have come to see our shows.

    Should the answer be somewhat political in nature or otherwise unsuitable to this forum, I understand and would ask you to PM me in respect of the Cafe's rules. Thanks so much and please forgive my ignorance.
    Last edited by Tim2723; Apr-12-2012 at 6:08am.
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  13. #38
    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Cant answer your question, but if it helps, here in Scotland it's only ever referred to as Gaelic (pronounced more like gallic) or Scottish/Scots gaelic and never as Scottish.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    There are some differences between Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, commonly known as Gaelic or P-Celtic (as opposed to the Q-Celtic languages like e.g. Cymru, Kernewek, ....)

    To pronounce the difference, the Irish call Irish Gaelic Irish (or Gaeilge) and the Scottish call Scottish Gaelic Gaelic. Probably it's all just to confuse those who speak Bearla
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Thanks, but now I wonder why anyone would get upset over it then?
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Gaelic, Goidelic or Q-Celtic is a branch of the Celtic language family, which contains Irish, Gallic (Scots Gaelic) and Manx. (The other branch is the Brythonic or P-Celtic, containing Cornish, Breton, Welsh and Old Cumbric). I would guess that Ireland chose to call its language Irish rather than Gaelic or Irish Gaelic as a way to strengthen its identity as an independent language, as opposed to a dialect of another language. It is perhaps also no co-incidence that the other main Gaelic-speaking (I refer here to the language sub-family, not a single language) nation is still (to date) part of the UK, whilst the Republic of Ireland is not, and is very proud of the fact.

    In many cases, the distinction between a language and a dialect is political. Modern English and Scots (not Gallic) developed separately out of Anglo-Saxon but, following Scotland's union with England in 1707, English became the language of government in Scotland and Scots was eventually relinquished to 'dialect' status. Similarly, Spain would have us believe that Gallego (Galician) is a dialect of Spanish, even though it is much closer to Portuguese. Conversely, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are, to a large extent, mutually intelligible, yet they are all languges in their own right.

  17. #42

    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Thanks, but now I wonder why anyone would get upset over it then?
    They shouldn't. I'm from Ireland and I often "correct" people in the US for calling it "Gaelic" but I don't take offence at it, nor does anyone I know. It's not wrong...I just sometimes point out to people that that's not what we call it. It's more for avoiding confusion than anything else...I'm not going to start calling it Gaelic (because it sounds funny to me), and it would be tricky to have a conversation where we use different names for the same thing!

    The ironic thing is that the Irish word for "Irish" is "Gaeilge" which obviously means Gaelic.

    The whole "seisiún" things bugs me a bit...there's a tendency to invent Irish-sounding cognates for things like this. They want them to sound like native Irish words. I think it's partly people's insecurity over the language, and partly the Irish habit of assimilating. I saw a documentary once about Yehudi Menuhin. He visited Donegal and got to know some locals, but they couldn't get the hang of his name, so they solved the problem by calling him Hughie McMeniman or something like that.

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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Quote Originally Posted by JollyBeggar View Post
    "The ironic thing is that the Irish word for "Irish" is "Gaeilge" which obviously means Gaelic."
    Perhaps that's because there's no need to assert one's Irishness to a fellow Irish speaker

    Quote Originally Posted by JollyBeggar View Post
    The whole "seisiún" things bugs me a bit...there's a tendency to invent Irish-sounding cognates for things like this. They want them to sound like native Irish words. I think it's partly people's insecurity over the language, and partly the Irish habit of assimilating.
    There may be some accuracy in your socioanalysis (if there is such a word). But it is perfectly normal for a language assimilating foreign words to adjust the spelling to its own system. Perhaps it is telling that English does it less than most languages (fission, motion, niche and fish all contain the same consonant sound, although represented by four different letter combinations). But Welsh has siop (shop), tren (train); Latvian has čipsi (chips, crisps); French has biftec (beefsteak) etc.

  19. #44

    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    There may be some accuracy in your socioanalysis (if there is such a word). But it is perfectly normal for a language assimilating foreign words to adjust the spelling to its own system. Perhaps it is telling that English does it less than most languages (fission, motion, niche and fish all contain the same consonant sound, although represented by four different letter combinations). But Welsh has siop (shop), tren (train); Latvian has čipsi (chips, crisps); French has biftec (beefsteak) etc.
    True...I think the English way makes more sense though. There's nothing wrong with changing the spelling, but the change to the pronunciation for no reason is a strange idea to me. For example, in Irish, there is nothing inherently foreign-sounding about "session". I can even think of some Irish words that it rhymes with. But this new word "seisiún" sounds somehow more deliberately Irish. Now if you look at older Irish words that came from other languages, like "seomra" (room) - that is pronounced almost identically to it's French cognate "chambre". I can't help thinking that in those days, they just took the word and used it whereas now we seem to be going out of our way to make it sound as Irish as possible - we are on the defensive so to speak.

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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    You know Irish better than me, JollyBeggar, so your assessment may well be right.

  21. #46
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Enforced nativologism is going on everywhere - for instance, the American cliche of Bavarian drinking culture has produced the peculiar word "beer stein", using the German word "Stein" (stone) to make an ordinary beer mug sound more German; however, if you use that word in Germany, you'd get puzzled blank stares at best.
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  22. #47
    Notary Sojac Paul Kotapish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Who, exactly, is enforcing these so-called nativologisms? The indignation over malapropisms amongst well-meaning enthusiasts in other countries seems a tad disingenuous. One person's pretension is another's Quixotic sign of respect.

    My take is that the common use of the not-quite-Irish spellings is motivated by equal measures of respect for and confusion about the traditional language--and a certain lack of consensus within the traditional culture itself.

    If it's common parlance to refer to an ITM festival as a Fleadh and a traditional-Irish-dance competition as a Fèis and a uillean pipers' convention as a Tionól, why should it be a surprise when enthusiasts assume that Seisiún and Craic are also proper terms, especially when they see the terms published by arbiters and defenders of the tradition: http://www.comhaltas.interweb.ie/seisiun/index.html
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  23. #48
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Po-tay-to, po-tah-to....
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  24. #49
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Kotapish View Post
    Who, exactly, is enforcing these so-called nativologisms? The indignation over malapropisms amongst well-meaning enthusiasts in other countries seems a tad disingenuous. One person's pretension is another's Quixotic sign of respect.
    OK, my hat is off to the real master of words.

    Indeed, I don't know who is enforcing such things, as they are not really neccessary. I guess it is part of the constant Brownian motion of language development, and some things are just fun to say, all the more if they are semantically decoupled.
    Now the CCE, on the other hand... fun is probably not what they are after.
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  25. #50
    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Seisun or Session?

    especially when they see the terms published by arbiters and defenders of the tradition

    Self-appointed of course.

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