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Thread: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

  1. #151
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Doesn't "open string sound" connote a more ringing sustain than you would get with a fingered note?
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    What I meant by "open string sound" was really "unfretted string sound." If you fret a string, the string stops ringing at the fretted pitch when you take your finger away, to put it on another string or fret. If you have a capoed string, it keeps ringing at the capoed pitch until you fret it, or the string vibrations decay.

    So you can get a drone, or double-stop where one string changes pitch as you fret it, while the other remains at the original pitch. And yes, you can get the same effect by fretting the string if you hold the finger down behind a particular fret on one string, and move the other finger(s) to change the intervals. I just like the effect one gets from having an unfretted string ringing at a particular pitch; you can get an "old-timey" sound, like a first-position fiddle, and you can do it easily in a key that doesn't offer many "open" strings if you don't capo.

    And I see nothing wrong or unmusical in doing it that way. In the kind of music I generally play, guitarists and banjoists use capos all the time, and draw no criticism for it. Mandolinists as a rule don't, and I hardly ever do either -- but there are times when I find the capoed sound to be preferable. I just find it, well, amusing that this controversy continues, and mandolinists have to defend using what is a generally-accepted tool in "plucked" acoustic music -- other than mandolins.
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  4. #153
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    If you have a capoed string, it keeps ringing at the capoed pitch until you fret it, or the string vibrations decay.
    Thank you Allen, this answers my question.

    I never use a capo, either on mandolin or guitar. I often wonder why bluegrass guitarists use them so much. If you know your barre chords I wouldn't think them necessary. I can only conclude that they are better or more comfortable playing leads out of open G (or sometimes C) position. But then again I also play with guitarists who never take a lead, and they do the same thing.
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  6. #154
    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
    I never use a capo, either on mandolin or guitar. I often wonder why bluegrass guitarists use them so much. If you know your barre chords I wouldn't think them necessary. I can only conclude that they are better or more comfortable playing leads out of open G (or sometimes C) position. But then again I also play with guitarists who never take a lead, and they do the same thing.
    With bluegrass guitar players, it's not so much about comfort as it is about getting the same chord sound as you get from the G, C, and D chord shapes. Any decent guitar player can play in the key of A, for example, using standard A, D, and E chords. But it just sounds different (and less desirable for the bluegrass sound, for lack of a better explanation) than using G, C, and D chords with the capo on the 2nd fret. The 'bouncing' bass notes are just better or more consistent for bluegrass using the G, C, and D shapes.

    I find it similar when playing the mandola. The chord shapes for playing in the key of A just don't sound as good to my ear because it requires using inversions which throw off the sound. And the larger scale makes it difficult for my small hands to use more appropriate chord shapes like I would on a mandolin. So a capo makes sense in that context, to me anyway. I can certainly play in any key on the mandola, but the capo just gives me more versatility in the chord shapes for the sound I think is more appropriate to the tune.

    But on the mandolin, which is primarily a lead instrument that doesn't offer much in the way of bass notes in rhythm playing, it's not so important. It's fairly easy to change chord shapes to avoid inversions because it's such a short-scale instrument. I could see where a capo might make sense in a key where one might want ringing open chords or drone notes that can't be played without a capo. But for me, the short narrow neck of a mandolin makes a capo very awkward. I haven't yet found a situation where I just had to use a capo, but I would consider using one if I needed it in a very specific case.

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    Registered User Hallmark498's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I think of the mando as primarily a rhythm instrument, that gets to take a break on most songs. How does using a capo effect the chop?

  8. #156
    bon vivant jaycat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    With bluegrass guitar players, it's not so much about comfort as it is about getting the same chord sound as you get from the G, C, and D chord shapes.
    Thank you Tobin. I am getting all my questions answered today!

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallmark498 View Post
    I think of the mando as primarily a rhythm instrument, that gets to take a break on most songs. How does using a capo effect the chop?
    I don't see that it would affect the chop at all, since it's a closed-position chord. If you're playing in A, for example, and capo the 2nd fret so you can do your lead with the same fingering as if you were playing in G, it still wouldn't change your A, D, and E chop chords. You'd play them the same as if you were not using a capo, and they'd sound the same.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
    Thank you Allen, this answers my question.

    I never use a capo, either on mandolin or guitar. I often wonder why bluegrass guitarists use them so much. If you know your barre chords I wouldn't think them necessary. I can only conclude that they are better or more comfortable playing leads out of open G (or sometimes C) position. But then again I also play with guitarists who never take a lead, and they do the same thing.
    Basically bluegrass rhythm guitarists work out of the cowboy chords (containing open strings) in the keys of C, D, E, G, and A
    (mnemonic: CAGED). Other keys (F, Bb, B), are reduced to these forms by means of a capo. There are options, of course, e.g., you can play in B capoed at the 2nd
    (A forms) or 4th fret (G forms), and in C open, capoed 3rd, or capoed 5th, according to the sound desired. For instance, Edd Mayfield capoed 3rd when recording Panhandle Country with Bill Monroe, in the key of C. And I assure you, guitarists are likely to notice that. In F there are also 3 options, but I believe BG guitarists would favor D forms, capoed 3rd. C forms would give more of a Carter family sound. Mac Wiseman has been known to avoid the use of a capo - you can see YouTube videos of him doing
    his own song 'Tis Sweet to Be Remembered and Travelin' Down this Lonesome Road (with Monroe) in F, uncapoed (omitting the 6th string).

    Lead flatpickers tend to use C and G forms, which may account for the sameness I often hear in BG lead playing. Fingerstyle is a different matter - for instance, Earl Scruggs used E forms a lot (in, say, the keys of G and A) on gospel numbers.

    Barre chords can never really give you the ring and splash that BG players favor, as they're harder to fret cleanly - try the G shape a couple of frets up the neck! - even a five string form (omitting the first string) is hard to fret cleanly. Of course, barre chords are also clumsy if you play a lot of connecting runs, because you may have to move your fingers around quite a bit between various chord forms.

    In genres like swing, players much prefer chords with fewer notes, e.g., avoiding the 6th string so as not to clash with the bass player. And I'm positive Freddie Green or Charlie Christian never used a capo.

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  12. #159
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I find these discussions to be slightly amusing. I sometimes wonder if anyone ever went up to Bill Monroe when he was first starting out and scolded him for playing the mandolin in what was at the time a nontraditional way?

    I think each of us should strive to make the best use of our instrument in a way that brings out the music inside of us. Of course this means learning as much as we can about chord shapes, positions, etc.

    But if you ever find yourself in a position where you have to learn a song in an unusual key, say Ab, in a relatively short amount of time (as I sometimes do in a choir setting), I have absolutely no problems with you using a capo. My hat is off to those on the board who are better musicians than I and who would not need such a crutch. But I still don't understand why anyone would/should care if I choose to do so?
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Depending on the sound I am wanting, a capo can be very useful on a mandolin or guitar. When I want a particular sound a certain chord shape provides, I will use a capo. If I want to play in the key of E on the mandolin using various mandolin chords up the neck, such as C#m, F#m, G#m, A, B, etc., then I skip the capo and do just that. The variety of approaches keeps things interesting for me and the audience.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    I don't see that it would affect the chop at all, since it's a closed-position chord. .
    Yea, with a closed position chord it doesn't matter what is going on between the fingers and the nut.

    But if one is using closed position chords, the capo is kind of superfluous.
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  17. #162
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    When I want a quickie soprano mando effect without spending the $, I capo on the 7th fret and voila.
    Well yea but...

    For any extended soprano effect, the way the fret markers are off on the capoed mandolin really frustrate me.

    So I got a soprano. And it comes out to the jam more often than not.

    Its like being fretted at the fifth fret BTW.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Hi! This is my 1st time posting at mandolincafe. I just read all 7 pages of this thread from start to finish - and, at the very end, found something I felt I should comment on. Hopefully, what I write will help you,...

    The trick to not being thrown off by the presence of a capo, is don't count frets using capo as zero. View the neck as an entire layout, with part of it made currently unavailable (the part between capo & nut). Note names on the fretboard don't change, just because part of the string is unavailable. Therefore, the notes included in a capo'd "open" chord all have the same names as if they were being fretted on an un-capo'd neck. Understand the chords as collections of named notes, with the capo doing part of the fretting. So, ignore the capo, and know the names of the notes you're fretting/including to create a chord.

    That being said, my personal preference is to NEVER use a capo on any instrument. The reason for that, is I've never been able to capo any instrument and have the open string notes still be on concert pitch, or even maintain an accurate relative tuning across the string set; i.e., in my experience capo'ing ALWAYS distorts the pitches, and unequally based on string diameters. Trying to compensate for that effect becomes a tuning nightmare - so, I simply don't do it.

  19. #164
    Registered User Petrus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Its like being fretted at the fifth fret BTW.
    Oops! My bad. I guess capoing on the 7th makes something else!

  20. #165
    Registered User Jessbusenitz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I play all three instruments, and I find the shorter scale a lot easier to play closed chords as my fingers are shorter, but I'm an advocate of learning to play anything without a capo.... makes you really learn the instrument. But if I'm at a jam and they pull a weird key out I'm not afraid to get the capo quick.

  21. #166
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallmark498 View Post
    I think of the mando as primarily a rhythm instrument, that gets to take a break on most songs. How does using a capo effect the chop?
    It gives you fewer closed forms.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Well yea but...

    For any extended soprano effect, the way the fret markers are off on the capoed mandolin really frustrate me.

    So I got a soprano. And it comes out to the jam more often than not.

    Its like being fretted at the fifth fret BTW.
    To be exact, the mandolin is a soprano instrument, a halfstep lower than a soprano saxophone. The piccolo is
    a sopranino instrument.

  23. #168

    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    This 82 year old guy I pick with at times was born with only one finger and part of a thumb plays with a capo but I never asked him how he has it tuned but he uses some crazy cording styles that sounds great. He can also play stuff like rawhide very good. He has that one finger and thumb right on time. I guess you do what you got to do if you want to pick. Never heard anyone kid him abt using a capo.

  24. #169
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    Barre chords can never really give you the ring and splash that BG players favor, as they're harder to fret cleanly - try the G shape a couple of frets up the neck! - even a five string form (omitting the first string) is hard to fret cleanly. Of course, barre chords are also clumsy if you play a lot of connecting runs, because you may have to move your fingers around quite a bit between various chord forms.

    In genres like swing, players much prefer chords with fewer notes, e.g., avoiding the 6th string so as not to clash with the bass player. And I'm positive Freddie Green or Charlie Christian never used a capo.
    Interesting perspective! I think you're on to something about the sounds of the open chords as opposed to barre chords.

    Now, from a swing player's POV, open chords ring too much to get the right "chunk chunk" 4/4 swing rhythm feel. You need to use closed fingered chord forms, and depending on the style will use 2-4 note chords, or full barre chords (an older pre-swing era style).

    However the classic Freddie Green style rhythm guitar skips the 5th string a bit more often than the 6th, typically using the 6th, 4th and 3rd strings for chord forms. But it's not that simple either:

    "Green's unusual technique explains why many professional guitarists who saw him play reported that he employed standard three-note voicings on the third, fourth and sixth strings. Yet Green's many recordings belie that statement. The notes that Green actually sounded were primarily subsets of common chord forms. This has led many musicians to write books and articles that incorrectly describe Green's rhythm guitar technique."

    http://www.freddiegreen.org/techniqu...beatFeb04.html

    There are times when only 2 or even a single note is used, too.

    Gypsy jazz rhythm players have their own variations on this, but are playing similar type chords but use 4 notes more often.

    I'm pretty sure Freddie Green or Charlie Christian never used a capo professionally, it wasn't part of the jazz guitar player's vocabulary.

    As for fretting chords cleanly, you were expected to do so, and that took a lot of practice. But, remember, before amplification, guys like Freddie Green had high action, thick strings and rarely played solo lines. Charlie Christian went for the relatively new electric guitar to play lines. Django and Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson were playing solo lines, but in small bands with few if any horns or drums.

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