Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

[ralph johansson]

How can you be inconsiderate of the other players when they are all using a capo? Holy Smokes! I think you should play the mandolin and use any tool or method you want. Look at Adam Steffey, one of the very best, he puts his pinky (and finger right next to it) right on the soundboard. Everytime. So does Sierra Hull. Does not hurt them. And about a pick, I read the the very best use medium picks. I took a workshop with Mike Marshall and he said touch the board if you want. Whatever works for you and so on. I was at a jam a while back and I overheard a player tell another they were holding their right hand wrong. And the player telling was terrible! Give me a break! I guess you will always have the snoots.

I guess these things trouble you a lot since you have to post on them repeatedly. As for post #92 the poster, to the best of my understanding, said that the fellow jammers were inconsiderate of timmando, not the other way around. That interpretation at least saves both emotions and words.

[ralph johansson]

The reason I need to use a capo is this...in a typical jam session around here, we have a banjo player who wants to stay in A when he is in A, and when he is in G, he wants to stay in G for awhile, because of tuning issues when he puts a capo on. We also have a guitar player who loves to pick in Bb. So the other day, we were all in A and they wanted to pick Redwing, which we usually do in G. A capo on my mando would have allowed me to take a break on the spot because I have not learned this song in A. Then the guitar player capos up to Bb and wants to play Clinch Mt. Backstep, which I know in A. This happens to me with Roll in my sweet babys arms, Sledd ride, Theme time, Mt. Dew...the list goes on and on. I guess when I am in Rome do as the Romans do...slap on a capo. I am having a hard enough time working out a break in one key for a song and at this time, I am busy learning a bunch of different songs, rather than learning one song in a bunch of different keys. If we don't play a song in all the different keys all the time, I will lose them from memory. So it seems simpler to learn it in one key and put on a capo if and when needed in a jam.

In time, of course, you will learn to transpose your songs more or less by ear so you can handle situtations like these. A capo will not help you if, e.g., you practised the song in A, and the banjo player insists on the key of G. The whole idea of performing song after song in the same key is revolting, as it invites boredom. Tuning issues? Banjos are fast to tune, faster than guitars and much faster than mandolins. Next jam, insist on songs in E, F or C. All the time.

[journeybear]

You must have some very special reason for the use of a capo in this case, as c minor sits more naturally (at least in open position) on the mandolin than b minor.

Huh? Each to one's own, YMMV, and all that, but only two open strings are in the Cm scale, while all four are in the Bm scale.

[Bernie Daniel]

What a great string. I learned another Ward Allen fiddle tune by not reading it!

[Timmando]

Ralph...you mentioned "Next jam, insist on songs in E, F or C. All the time." That would get me in alot of trouble, especially because I am not yet capable of playing very well in E, F or C! I am acceptable in G at this time, and know tab breaks in A and D. I can't yet improvise much on the spot yet, except some in G and A. Tab helps me get up to speed on alot of the bluegrass songs that I need to learn. I drop alot of the notes to increase speed though because sometimes the tab was tabbed out by someone who has been picking for 20 years and my hands can't do their break note for note.

Tommando...you mentioned "Plenty of Monroe style licks in the A form." Those are what I need to learn...are they tabbed out anywhere?

In the local jam here the keys change alot because it may be a different person singing the song, one prefers A, one prefers Bb, the other prefers G (me). We all know the words to alot of the same songs. And some folks want to sing in a high key because thats the way Monroe did it, but no one in our group can sing a high tenor. So what happens is the guy who wants to sing the lead in a high key gets no harmony from anyone in the chorus. I try to sing in a lower key because I want the other guy to be able to help the song by doing a high harmony on the chorus, also because its easier for me to sing in a lower key than Monroe.

I got my paige capo and it seems to work fine if I pull it down real tight on the radiused fretboard. I think I need to bend it a little bit yet. Took a break using it on Tennessee waltz the other day. I know a break in C and the guy singing it wanted to do it in D, so the capo has already paid for itself!

[Tom Haywood]

I like the Dunlop Victor guitar capo because it has the right curve for my instruments and doesn't need to be tightened down too hard. It's a little bulky. There are a number of tab sources for Monroe style playing but I don't remember right off where to find them. There is some good stuff on the cafe, and you can try mandozine.com. I think Mel Bay has a new book out. Your example about The Tennessee Waltz is right on. Why struggle in front of people to find the melody in a key that you aren't accustomed to playing it in if the capo gets you there and sounds OK? I've spent several years playing The Tennessee Waltz in F for our singer. F is a really neat key on the mandolin, but I hear that song in C and it messes me up every time. Audiences hate for you to miss a note in that one. D at the third fret solves the problem.

[Timmando]

Hi Tom...here is my break in C to Tennessee Waltz. It was pretty straightforward to do in C, I can't imagine a break in F at this time!
And noone in our jam does it in F that I know of...it is either C or D depending on who is playing fiddle...the fiddle player prefers it in D, but if he isn't there we do it in C.

http://soundcloud.com/mandoman-2/tennessee-waltz

If I bend the paige capo somewhat I think I can make it work better on the radiused fretboard...a couple a pairs of good wrenches and I'll be all set.

[Nick Triesch]

Sorry, but I do not have 5000 posts like some folks. I just hate it when say a band that where the banjo and guitar uses a capo tell the mandolin to take that thing off. Or that it distracts for the others! And also many of us who have been playing 20 years plus and playwell will never transpose. That is as far as I want to go and I still have a blast! We just put on a capo. Just like the guitar and banjo players always do in most bluegrass bands.

[journeybear]

You know, in all fairness, that is really the way it should be. A capo is just a tool, and tools are supposed to be functional, without emotional impact. Somehow this tool engenders emotional reactions to an extent far disproportional to the rather simple activity occasioned by its use, and sparks fly. Doesn't make sense. Would people get this wound up over a wrench or a hammer?:confuse:

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you might diffuse some of the contempt, condescension, and derision you might receive from others when you use a capo if you were to use one of these. People will pay more attention to the thing itself than your use of it, and you will be off the hook. And if they listen to what you are playing more than how you manage it, you will have subverted their prejudice and become enlightened. That's my theory, anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

[Timmando]

Nice capo there journeybear! Perfect for key west. I used to have one that looked like a finger, an old. wrinkled up finger with a red fingernail...don't know where that went, might find it somewhere, someplace, but it was a funny one too.

[Tom Haywood]

Great break on the Tennessee Waltz; nice recording too. The problem I have with the Paige capos is that the piece behind the neck needs to fit the neck just right or it can push in to the wood when you tighten it down. The bird and finger capos speak for themselves, and indicate a concept that I would like to communicate at times to some of the "traditionalists".

[Timmando]

Thanks Tom....a slow tune I can do...it's the fast ones and improvisation, played clean, that are out of reach at the moment. That was recorded with a 67 D18 and my Sammy Mando, using a radio shack lapel condensor microphone. And that finger capo was a hoot ...if I put it on the guitar neck and then put my hand around the neck, it looked like I had 5 fingers wrapped around the neck with a thumb over the top. That got a laugh out of the other guys first time.

[mandopete]

You must have some very special reason for the use of a capo in this case, as c minor sits more naturally (at least in open position) on the mandolin than b minor.

Two words - open strings.

[allenhopkins]

Bird of Paradise capo was invented/developed by John Wiesenthal, on the guitar faculty of the Hochstein School here in Rochester.

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[journeybear]

Yes, indeed. And at $60 a pop, it seems a natural choice for those for whom shelling out for such pricey items as Blue Chip picks and Elixir strings and Peterson tuners etc etc etc is the only way to go.

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[allenhopkins]

Yes, indeed. And at $60 a pop, it seems a natural choice for those for whom shelling out for such pricey items as Blue Chip picks and Elixir strings and Peterson tuners etc etc etc is the only way to go....

Now I'm confused. John W gave me one (a decade ago) to try out (liked it but don't use it much; it's a spare). At that time it was selling around $15, and Elderly still lists it here for $14.95. Perhaps there's a "signature" model with cubic zirconium inlays...?

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[norm351]

To each his on, but I am 61 years old, started playing mandolin when I was 10, and I've not used a capo in 50 years, let go of the training wheels, you got ride on your on sometime, but if you can't play without one...go for it.

[ralph johansson]

Huh? Each to one's own, YMMV, and all that, but only two open strings are in the Cm scale, while all four are in the Bm scale.

Open strings have no particular significance to me, except they're harder to control. I do play a lot in F, which has scale notes on all open courses, and Bb, which has three, but they can often be avoided or used as phrase turns or pivot notes for asending scales. I don't know the reason why cm, and its relative major, Eb, work so well,
all I can say is that I find a lot of nice figures that finger and phrase very naturally.
Capoing at the first fret incidentally robs you of the low fifth of the c minor scale,
a nice pivot for some phrases over the G7 chord.

The biggest drawback of capoing - to me- is that it can get a bit confusing as you travel up the neck. On my main instrument, the guitar, I avoid capoing especially when playing lead stuff (I'm a flatpicker) - and in backup I've found that there are lots of interesting solutions to playing uncapoed in a large number of keys. I'd get bored playing everything out of G or C forms.

There's a video of Andy Leftwich playing with a less than spectacular singer, using a capo in the key of Bb. And I'm impressed because he's all over the fretboard without getting lost.

[journeybear]

Now I'm confused.

Now I'm confused. I saw that price (actually $59.95) somewhere while searching for images, and didn't think to shop around for confirmation - I wasn't shopping around, after all. It seemed a bit steep, but these appear to be a few steps up the technological scale from the usual styles, so I assumed they were priced accordingly. They are $19.95 at the mfr website.

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[rico mando]

[journeybear]

Finally! Someone understands and finds a way to show just how silly this whole deal is, as I have been hinting at all along. If only Little Jimmy were using one of these instead of the standard issue one.

[mandopete]

Open strings have no particular significance to me, except they're harder to control.

Two words - chord voicing.

[Cal]

Too crowded as compared to larger necks and scale lengths of guitars mandolas, banjos, etc.

have learned the fretboard better without a capo.

[DavidKOS]

Why struggle in front of people to find the melody in a key that you aren't accustomed to playing it in if the capo gets you there and sounds OK?

I've been reading this thread......and sure use a capo as a choice for keeping open string voicings. I don't use one, though, on mandolin and rarely on guitar. I don't play 5 string banjo, so that's a moot point.

I'm not picking on Tommando per se, but, uh, something bothers me about the idea of playing in front of an audience when you don't know the material in the correct keys.

I assume this is a paid audience, so as a professional shouldn't a person not be struggling with stage material, capo or not? As in know your instrument and be able to play in all and any keys?

[Petrus]

When I want a quickie soprano mando effect without spending the $, I capo on the 7th fret and voila.