Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

[allenhopkins]

What I really love about these forums is that you can explain any issue any number of times and people will insist on their misunderstandings and prejudice.

And what I love, is that some can express their views without being condescending. Not all, but some.

The issue, of course, is not whether to use a capo or not, it should be the implications of capo dependence.

Is there a 12-step program? I think, rather, the issue is one of capo use, or non-use, and the reasons for choosing either.

However, as soon as people start talking about "OK", "shame" or "no shame", "accepted" or "not accepted", they are no longer talking about music. And when they start talking about strange, mandolin non-friendly, or even obnoxious keys, they are talking nonsense.

"Music" in the broader context, such as the interaction among musicians, some of whom seem to view capo use as an indication of musical inferiority. I'm sure, of course, none of us would imply that, right?

Unless you have a burning desire to view others as idiots...Some people set very modest goals for themselves and seek various means of minimizing their learning. Their limitiations will show...the numbing sameness in their playing....players who terrorize jams by insisting on the keys of G, A, B or C because they can play only G...
And, please, on any technical or didactical topic, never advise a beginner to do whatever it takes, whatever works for you, etc., because beginners as a rule are very poor judges of that. They may not even be clear about their goals.

I guess my burning desire is to view others as fellow musicians, doing the best they can to make the music they love, and using a variety of strategies, equipment, and efforts to get to where they'd like to be. If that variety includes using a capo, that's a choice that's available. Emphasizing others' inabilities, poor choices, lack of technique or discipline -- talking down to them -- doesn't seem useful to me. It seems odd, sometimes, that this particular question -- what if any role capo use has in mandolin playing -- seems to call forth a certain haughtiness from those who choose not to use one. I seldom if ever put a capo on my mandolins, but I don't feel in any way superior to those who choose to do so.

[JeffD]

And, please, on any technical or didactical topic, never advise a beginner to do whatever it takes, whatever works for you, etc., because beginners as a rule are very poor judges of that. They may not even be clear about their goals.

It is hard to know where the line is for this. While I agree that telling a rank newbie go ahead and hold that pick anyway you want is probably not productive, and if a person is asking, (really asking, not just snarking a prejudice), I think we owe some kind of real answer.

On the other hand, we are not conservatory students here, and so the lines between "clearly wrong", "ill advised", and "not the way I do it" are not drawn with as dark a marker. I have been playing a while, and I myself often cannot distinguish between "not effective" and "not effective for me, for the way I like to sound and the music I like to play".

I try to couch things in terms of my real experience, or conclusions I have drawn from my personal experience, rather than pretending to an expertise and knowledge of "how it should be done".

In the non convservatory world, we will all have things to overcome that we will wish we had known at the beginning. No matter how we started, it will prove over time to have been less than th best place to start.

Remember - in playing as in life, good judgements come from experience. And experience comes from bad judgements.

Someitmes doing it "wrong" can teach you more than an expert telling you how to do it "right."

[Ole Joe Clark]

I wish this thread would die from neglect.

Joe

[onassis]

Amen.

[journeybear]

How will that happen if people keep posting?


Oh ... oops!

[allenhopkins]

OK, stopping now...

[ralph johansson]

It is hard to know where the line is for this. While I agree that telling a rank newbie go ahead and hold that pick anyway you want is probably not productive, and if a person is asking, (really asking, not just snarking a prejudice), I think we owe some kind of real answer.

On the other hand, we are not conservatory students here, and so the lines between "clearly wrong", "ill advised", and "not the way I do it" are not drawn with as dark a marker. I have been playing a while, and I myself often cannot distinguish between "not effective" and "not effective for me, for the way I like to sound and the music I like to play".

I try to couch things in terms of my real experience, or conclusions I have drawn from my personal experience, rather than pretending to an expertise and knowledge of "how it should be done".

In the non convservatory world, we will all have things to overcome that we will wish we had known at the beginning. No matter how we started, it will prove over time to have been less than th best place to start.

Remember - in playing as in life, good judgements come from experience. And experience comes from bad judgements.

Someitmes doing it "wrong" can teach you more than an expert telling you how to do it "right."

The problem with "whatever works for you" is that the effects of a choice, even a good one, are not immediate. And once you realize you're headed in the wrong direction it can be very time-consuming to correct your mistakes. The late John McGann has told the story of his progress and the effects of a lesson with Andy Statman. Of course his superior musicality aided him in understanding the need for a revision of his technique. It helps to be clear about your goals, so any kind of advice perhaps should start with that question.

In the initial post the TS points out that a capo allows him to transpose his "licks" from key to key, because they finger the same. I have no problem with that. But in the long run he might get bored himself. In one of these threads someone said "OK if it helps you get your ideas across". In some cases the proper issue might be how to get ideas at all, what does it take to trigger your imagination and keep it alive. How do you deal with stuckness?

[JeffD]

How do you deal with stuckness?

Stuckness is one of the symptoms. You have gone as far as you can go with the playing style and techniques you have developed doing "what feels good to you", and in every direction that you explore something to change you hit against one of the "less than effective" techniques that you haven't yet decided to change. No single "ineffective" technique hurts enough; going a new way doesn't feel good (or you would have done already), and trying something new will make you sound worse at first. The combination leaves you trapped.

The problem is that capo use to avoid closed position playing is only one of those items. DUD DUD picking for jigs, tremolo, learning to read music, playing melody, practicing scales, pinky planting, learning to play by ear, there are several doors perhaps that have not been opened.

The thing is that there is and always will be another door to open. So its hard to know when its better to suggest opening a door, or to suggest enjoying the room your in till you discover the need to open the door. One never gets to the place where all doors are open, so a closed door, in and of itself, is nothing to be ashamed of.

I am guessing that is where the snoot factor comes in. When someone feels or comes across feeling superior for having opened the particular door in question.

[Mike Bunting]

To reiterate, see post #6.

[JeffD]

Mike. While I agree with the sentiment of post #6, I seem to be coming more and more sympathetic to the idea that someone may really be not in it to learn all about it, or to learn about music, but to get busy banging on the thing with friends. This seems to me to be a legitimate approach. Not for everyone, but I can't argue that its not right for some. And this hypothetical someone will learn soon enough how the capo, or any other "bad habit" for that matter limits them. Or not.

If they do come back to us with genuine questions, we will foregive them their "trespasses" and help them as much as we can.

If we told people how much homework is involved in playing mandolin, really being able to play it, who would even start?

[tprior]

a capo is a tool....it should not be confused with " I need it to play"...As mentioned above, the mando being a short scaled hi pitched Instrument already puts it in a precarious category for the capo unlike the long scale Instruments. I always love hearing " oh he needs a capo " when playing guitars...when in actuality a player who uses the capo for the proper reason knows exactly why...it's a tool....the biggest asset to the capo is that it allows for maintaining open strings...which in many cases is the style of the player...long live the capo !
Plus Eb on the guitar is not my favorite key...

[Wolfmanbob]

Generally speaking, we mandolin players are fine musicians who exist on an elevated plain way beyond mere mortals such as guitar players and (excuse the expression) "banjo" players. The very concept of a capo on a mandolin is ugly and disturbing to us and we generally eschew the very idea of it. However, I do use one on my upright bass.

[journeybear]

I'm so sure!


PS: See post #62.

[Mandolin Mick]

I've used one on the guitar, especially playing Simon & Garfunkel because Paul used one.

However ... it just seems disturbing to use one on the mandolin. To each his own and there's nothing wrong with it .. but it just doesn't look right. Right now I'm learning a Red Rector tune in Eb. I'm sure that he really recorded it in D and the turn table's probably fast, but I wouldn't dream of capoing on the first fret. IMHO.

[Timmando]

The reason I need to use a capo is this...in a typical jam session around here, we have a banjo player who wants to stay in A when he is in A, and when he is in G, he wants to stay in G for awhile, because of tuning issues when he puts a capo on. We also have a guitar player who loves to pick in Bb. So the other day, we were all in A and they wanted to pick Redwing, which we usually do in G. A capo on my mando would have allowed me to take a break on the spot because I have not learned this song in A. Then the guitar player capos up to Bb and wants to play Clinch Mt. Backstep, which I know in A. This happens to me with Roll in my sweet babys arms, Sledd ride, Theme time, Mt. Dew...the list goes on and on. I guess when I am in Rome do as the Romans do...slap on a capo. I am having a hard enough time working out a break in one key for a song and at this time, I am busy learning a bunch of different songs, rather than learning one song in a bunch of different keys. If we don't play a song in all the different keys all the time, I will lose them from memory. So it seems simpler to learn it in one key and put on a capo if and when needed in a jam.

[JeffD]

So it seems simpler to learn it in one key and put on a capo if and when needed in a jam.

Well it gets you out there and gets you playing. Enjoy the room you are in, absolutely, If at some point you chose to "open the door" to playing any tune in several keys, there is a universe of musicality to explore in that room, let me tell you. Though that room as some doors to open at the far end as well...

[Earl Gamage]

The reason I need to use a capo is this...in a typical jam session around here, we have a banjo player who wants to stay in A when he is in A, and when he is in G, he wants to stay in G for awhile, because of tuning issues when he puts a capo on. We also have a guitar player who loves to pick in Bb. So the other day, we were all in A and they wanted to pick Redwing, which we usually do in G. A capo on my mando would have allowed me to take a break on the spot because I have not learned this song in A. Then the guitar player capos up to Bb and wants to play Clinch Mt. Backstep, which I know in A. This happens to me with Roll in my sweet babys arms, Sledd ride, Theme time, Mt. Dew...the list goes on and on. I guess when I am in Rome do as the Romans do...slap on a capo. I am having a hard enough time working out a break in one key for a song and at this time, I am busy learning a bunch of different songs, rather than learning one song in a bunch of different keys. If we don't play a song in all the different keys all the time, I will lose them from memory. So it seems simpler to learn it in one key and put on a capo if and when needed in a jam.

That is really kind of inconsiderate of your fellow jammers. There are normal keys for most fiddle tunes. If it's a singing song, any key goes. You could learn your fiddle tune breaks in closed position if you want to jam with those folks. Some are even easy that way like Clinch or Black Mtn Rag, you just don't get to use the open slides. If you do that you will end up way better than the average bear mandolin picker.

Another option is ask them to pick the more normal key, or just use the capo. Just my opinions, I know some folks think nothing of changing keys even on fiddle tunes.

[Justus True Waldron]

Wow, 4 pages of talk on capos! I've so far refrained from adding anything to the noise, but I want to see how long this discussion can keep on going... To me, this issue seems simple, and I've heard this same view expressed: A capo CAN be a useful tool, if for reasons of singing the song gets put in a key with no open notes but the sound of the open notes is desired. I'm also all for a capo if people really want to do something unique and different, like capoing only certain strings or what not... but I'd assume not in bluegrass. For any other reason? I'd think it was a crutch. 99.999% of the time I've seen a mandolin player using a capo, it was because they only knew a few monroe licks in G, and wanted to play them in other keys. AT LEAST 99.9999% of the time. To me I see no excuse for this, especially if this same person has been playing for any length of time. Case in point, this one player I met at a jam who kept insisting his mandolin (Michael Kelly) was the best mandolin every because it was LOUD! And who kept wanting me to try his Golden Gate pick (It's imitation tortoise!). He claimed he'd been playing for years, and I believe him, he knew lots of songs and led a bunch of them, all out of G with a capo. He kept trying to impress me with his stuff... I could tell this was his livelihood, so I wasn't about to ruin it for him by telling him I played a handmade mandolin that hunted down banjos for sport but also tamed lions and ended wars with it's tone, and that I was using an ACTUAL TS pick. I simply smiled and tried to act as impressed as possible... Anyways, I believe it is guys like this that lead people to hate capos for mandolin. I'm pretty sure he'd been playing mandolin since before I was born, given the songs and people he knew at the jam, so he should have had PLENTY of time to learn to play in other keys (or at least learn a couple extra licks!) As I said, I could tell this was his livelihood, and I believe he should have the right to continue to play however makes him happy. I on the other hand exercised my right to not return to that jam after that night :p I'd much rather play with people that are open and trying to learn and improve, no matter how bad they might be at the moment, than someone who has decided they've arrived, and try to impress other people. The thing was at the time, that guy probably was actually a better mandolin player than me, I was pretty new and didn't know a lot of songs. Now, 2 years later I play in a band, know lots of songs, and am comfortable playing in almost any key. I guarantee you if I met him again he'd still be doing the same old thing... and thus is the reason for capo disdain

[rico mando]

You got to take the training wheels off some day .

[Marty Henrickson]

On the other hand, think about that attitude of superiority because of owning an expensive instrument and using an "ACTUAL TS" pick.

[Justus True Waldron]

I could really care less how expensive a mandolin is or what kind of pick someone uses. I'm all about the sound, and if you can get that I don't care what your setup is one bit. I've played $30,000 Dudes and nuggets that didn't impress me, and I've played some $200 Kentuckys that did... in fact I played one myself for a good while, and I never expected to be able to afford an instrument like I have now. One of my favourite mandolin players, Jesse Cobb, plays with pretty standard dunlop picks.

The fact was that sound wise things were left to be desired... and yet this guy kept trying to impress me with his stuff. He kept saying "You HAVE to try this pick, it's imitation tortise! It's amazing! I ordered it just for mandolin! It's imitation tortise! It'll make you sound better, I guarentee it!!!" until I actually tried it (which I was happy to do, as I'd never tried one before). The irony of course was that he was pushing his imitation tortise Golden Gate (which I don't think is even that much of an imitation?) while I was standing there with the real thing. For the record, I don't even use TS any more, I love the tone but it's too much work to maintain...

[Nick Triesch]

How can you be inconsiderate of the other players when they are all using a capo? Holy Smokes! I think you should play the mandolin and use any tool or method you want. Look at Adam Steffey, one of the very best, he puts his pinky (and finger right next to it) right on the soundboard. Everytime. So does Sierra Hull. Does not hurt them. And about a pick, I read the the very best use medium picks. I took a workshop with Mike Marshall and he said touch the board if you want. Whatever works for you and so on. I was at a jam a while back and I overheard a player tell another they were holding their right hand wrong. And the player telling was terrible! Give me a break! I guess you will always have the snoots.

[Tom Haywood]

I tested it at the jam session two weeks in a row. Capoed the mandolin on a few songs in F, Bb and B. The tone was really nice and the breaks were smoother and more varied than what I've been playing. Plenty of Monroe style licks in the A form. A lot of good comments from the audience and other players. The only negative comments came from the bluegrass section (my friends), who expressed shock that I would do such a thing and surprise that it sounded good. The strongest objection came from a friend who is a good guitarist and banjo player who capos the guitar all the way up the neck to play all his breaks in C form. The consensus from that section was that I should keep a low profile.

[mandopete]

but I wouldn't dream of capoing on the first fret. IMHO.

Dude - C minor, just rocks capo'ed at 1.

[ralph johansson]

Dude - C minor, just rocks capo'ed at 1.

You must have some very special reason for the use of a capo in this case, as c minor sits more naturally (at least in open position) on the mandolin than b minor.