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Thread: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Of course, what you really illustrate is the drawbacks (in many cases) of learning a song from tab, instead of by ear (or sheet music). If you really know the song, if you have internalized it, know what the notes are, and why they're there, all you have to do is listen inwards and find the notes in the desired key.
    Your knock on TAB doesn't make much sense to me. Knowing the tune is knowing the tune, whether one learns it from TAB, from a recording, from notation, or from a friend. Knowing the tune intimately enough to transpose it to different keys is a function of time, practice, and individual skill level, not learning method, at least IMHO. You may have a different opinion. I'm enjoying moving my more familiar tunes to different keys, shifting major melodies to minor, etc., challenging myself to really know the tune. Doesn't really seem to matter how I originally learned it.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Again, I say learn to play in every key if possible. You never know when you will be in a jam or in a band or just accompanying a female singer that typically will need to sing in F# or J# or something. So instead of just sitting there looking stupid like most musicians do, just jump in there and give it a go. You may not prefer Whiskey Before Breakfast in Ab as opposed to D but give it a shot. (Of course here is where someone jumps in that they prefer Whiskey Before and After Breakfast, before bedtime, blah, blah, blah.)

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Learn all that stuff everyone is saying. Absolutely.

    But have great heaping gobs of fun in the mean time. And if that means using a capo, then do it with a bit of joie de vivre.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Wow, the snoot factor is still alive. Many of us play many different styles of music and will never be in a jam to back up a female singer in F#. I say learn to play in every other key only if you want to. Bluegrass is not the only music and some of us play just to have a blast. That would be like me saying " Learn to play every kind of music possible including classical just in case you are invited to play along with a symphony that plays in F#" . Snoot.
    ntriesch

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    just not much room left. different if the neck is twice as long.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by onassis View Post
    Your knock on TAB doesn't make much sense to me. Knowing the tune is knowing the tune, whether one learns it from TAB, from a recording, from notation, or from a friend. Knowing the tune intimately enough to transpose it to different keys is a function of time, practice, and individual skill level, not learning method, at least IMHO. You may have a different opinion. I'm enjoying moving my more familiar tunes to different keys, shifting major melodies to minor, etc., challenging myself to really know the tune. Doesn't really seem to matter how I originally learned it.
    Being a master of nuance I wrote "in many cases". There was a thread on the usefulness of learning to read tab for someone who already knows standard. Several people claimed that tab is "immediate" or "intuitive" and takes no time to "learn" at all. It's hard to believe that these people can extract from tab what a good reader can from standard . If someone gave me
    (or any musician of moderate reading skill) the score for this piece in the key of C a cursory glance would tell me (him/her) what and where the notes are in A. If written in A I would probably also see the possibilites for variations, ornamentation, etc. right away. But I would prefer to learn this particular song by ear, and there are at least thrre versions on YouTube (unfortunately unaccompanied).

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Triesch View Post
    Wow, the snoot factor is still alive. Many of us play many different styles of music and will never be in a jam to back up a female singer in F#. I say learn to play in every other key only if you want to. Bluegrass is not the only music and some of us play just to have a blast. That would be like me saying " Learn to play every kind of music possible including classical just in case you are invited to play along with a symphony that plays in F#" . Snoot.
    The post you comment on presented some useful and friendly advice. If you want to question its validity, please do so by rational argument instead of insult.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Although I learn by ear and can read tab but not notation, the more I learn about it the more I feel standard notation offers a more complete picture than tab. Granted, I don't learn well from written notation and usually need an audible example to get the feel of it, I've watched my piano buddy go through book after book, page after page, regurgitating songs from classical to ragtime, note for note and explaining to me how he knew what tempo to use, trills, triplets, feeling, louder, softer, changes to any of the aforementioned and beyond. It's all in the notation and even though I like tab and find it easier it just doesn't contain as much information. Eventually I'll learn std. notation but learning by ear from another musician is my preferred method.

    What's not in the notation is the feeling and the passion. That comes from the player.

    p.s. - Where did the snoot police come from and when were they indoctrinated? I missed the 1st meeting.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Nick has a good point. I have come around to it a little.

    That is the following.

    We all say it doesn't matter if you use a capo or not, but there are some of us get a tad self rightous saying that we chose not to use a capo. Or say, never had to use one, or some such. I have even done this, and I confess that someone who reads my post would not be entirely inaccurate to detect a little snoot in there.

    If it doesn't matter, then its like using a strap or not - do what ever floats yer boat.

    We don't all aspire to play in every key, and so the advice, even though its meant to be helpful, to learn every key, can come across a little snooty. My pointing out that wanting to use a capo is fine while needing to use a capo is problematical... even that observation, which I feel is true, can come across a bit snooty. Its only problematical if someone has the same mando-goals as me. But there is a load of fun to be had without wanting to play in every key. When or if it becomes a problem, or the player wants to play in other keys, the "problems" with a capo will become self evident. In the end, who is having the more real time fun?

    Nick, I shudder to admit it but you do have a point.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Anyhow , if you back up a singer and their vocal range for the song, is not the easy keys,
    you go where the voice requires.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    The only snootiness I've notice is coming from the people calling out the so called snootiness.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Well, then, allow me to put in my 2¢. If we accept the premise of the thread title, then this is so because banjos and guitars are common instruments, able to be played by common people, with common tastes and sensibilities. Hence, the use of a device such as a capo, which is compromising standards if not out-and-out cheating, is acceptable to them. Mandolins, however, are high class instruments played by people with refined tastes and sensibilities, who would never stoop to such a lowly approach.

    Sorry, but it needed to be said, and high time, too.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Journeybear! I cannot believe you said that!!!! So , does that mean my 1980 James Goodall Standard guitar is not a high class instrument? And, last time I checked there are many unrefined mandolin players out there. I am not going to say the S word again but you sir are the complete definition! Since using a capo is fully accepted for use by the best guitar and banjo players in bluegrass, I feel many players may resent what you just said. You make me gak!
    ntriesch

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I assume that you forgot to add the winking smiley.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Nick, easy now. I think you missed all of Journeybear's sarcasm. I read it as tongue-in-cheek humor, not a serious comment on the topic.
    The use of a capo has been discussed to death in previous threads, and there will never be complete agreement here at the cafe. While probably the dream of all of us is to be able to play anything, anytime, in any key on our mandolins, it's just not going to happen. We all have our limitations including practice time, physical problems, locations, and others. I think that the stand we take on capos is going to be based on the tonality required for our interpretation of the song, the type of music we are playing, and the skill level we have.
    As has been stated before, the capo should not used because we don't want to learn how to play in a particular key, but because our interpretation of the tune needs it.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Hmm, Nick either forgot to put a smiley face or got his unsnooty feeling hurt. lol j/k Nick.

    To be clear, I think whatever you want to do to get your sound out then it will be appreciated and complimented on, capo or not. Buuuuuut, if you do use a capo you can count on some good natured ribbing from me no matter if you are Sam Bush, Ricky Skaggs or Jesus H. Christ.

    "Nice capo, Jesus" Haha..

    I'd expect that the capo using mandolinist to have a sense of humor as well since being politically correct is both draining and annoying. Besides, I wouldn't want JC to zap my wine into water and turn my mandolin into a banjer, now, would I?
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Tongue firmly planted in cheek, guys. I did NOT forget to include my winky, though I feared doing so would diminish the impact somewhat. I must say, though, I'm surprised this sat there for over a day and almost 150 views before it got a response. Maybe not that many folks really care all that much?

    I dunno. This is a real tempest in a teapot topic and deserved a bit of a tweak, is all. Carry on!
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Well, then, allow me to put in my 2¢. If we accept the premise of the thread title, then this is so because banjos and guitars are common instruments, able to be played by common people, with common tastes and sensibilities. Hence, the use of a device such as a capo, which is compromising standards if not out-and-out cheating, is acceptable to them. Mandolins, however, are high class instruments played by people with refined tastes and sensibilities, who would never stoop to such a lowly approach.

    Sorry, but it needed to be said, and high time, too.


    Nathan

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    why not mandolin?
    ........because Bill didn't use one!!!! Of course he had his Loar. THAT would definitely be a criminal offense.

    Seriously, who cares? Tony Rice knows more guitar neck than any 5 mandolin pickers and he uses one on his guitar. I'm positive he wouldn't have to. Same with Glen Campbell.

    I don't use one and never have. I learned to play mandolin in church......hymnal tunes are played in the flats......3 flats(Eb), 4 flats(Ab). At the time, I didn't know capos were an option. But it really doesn't matter, does it? Sound is what it's about, right?

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Use a capo or don't, I could certainly do without the verging-on-sacrilegious remarks. They have no more place on this forum than would proselytizing.

    Quote Originally Posted by re simmers
    Seriously, who cares? Tony Rice knows more guitar neck than any 5 mandolin pickers and he uses one on his guitar. I'm positive he wouldn't have to.
    Thank you for this, you read my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by re simmers
    I don't use one and never have. I learned to play mandolin in church......hymnal tunes are played in the flats......3 flats(Eb), 4 flats(Ab). At the time, I didn't know capos were an option. But it really doesn't matter, does it? Sound is what it's about, right?

    Bob
    That is why I use a capo when playing my mandolin at church, but my goal is definitely to learn those keys without the capo. It does cause a few problems - getting in the way, having to transpose on the fly, and causing tuning issues.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Didn't mean to be sacrilegious and don't think I was being sacrilegious or even verging on it; just an attempt to inject a little levity and humor in a thread void of it. Besides, although Jesus can probably play anything with strings on it I'd like to think he'd be a mando player and probably still wouldn't use a capo.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by greg_tsam View Post
    ...an attempt to inject a little levity and humor in a thread void of it...
    Well, I can't help but smile about the zillionth thread arguing over whether or not to use a capo.

    Folks, it's up to you. Almost all bluegrass banjo players use capos, but Don Reno didn't. Hardly any jazz guitarists use them, but almost every folk or bluegrass guitarist I've ever seen did, while classical guitarists don't. Bluegrass tends to be played in "fiddle keys," since fiddle's an integral part of bluegrass instrumentation, and that means a lot of G, A, D, some C, B, B♭, F -- all of which have available open strings. Not too much E♭, etc. (Yeah, I know there's an open G string available in E♭.) So there's quite possibly not as much consideration for capoing in bluegrass.

    Doesn't mean you needn't learn to play in those other keys, but it's solely a matter of your preferences, unfretted strings vs. shortened fingerboard, using familiar licks and patterns vs. expanding one's technique, playing the way you wanta vs. dealing with the contempt of the non-capoers. This question's been kicked around over and over again, and after reading a gazillion posts, I've yet to see any reason why you shouldn't use a capo if you find it useful.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    What I really love about these forums is that you can explain any issue any number of times and people will insist on their misunderstandings and prejudice. The issue, of course, is not whether to use a capo or not, it should be the implications of capo dependence. I wish I had a euro for every time I pointed this out. Actually the TS asked how many here use a capo, and "why not mandolin", and a lot of answers addressed exactly that issue. However, as soon as people start talking about "OK", "shame" or "no shame", "accepted" or "not accepted", they are no longer talking about music. And when they start talking about strange, mandolin non-friendly, or even obnoxious keys, they are talking nonsense.

    I don't know how many times Nick Triesch has felt the need to defend himself although no one has critisized him. It would of course be highly improper to critisize an amateur and only an idiot would critisize someone without even hearing his playing. Unless you have a burning desire to view others as idiots there's always the option of logic. Some people set very modest goals for themselves and seek various means of minimizing their learning. Their limitiations will show, of course, although we may not be aware of their exact causes. Some bluegrass lead guitarists reduce everything to G or C fingering by means of a capo which probably accounts for the numbing sameness in their playing. There are (so I've been told) banjo players who terrorize jams by insisting on the keys of G, A, B or C because they can play only G in open position. At the last jam I attended I called Beaumont Rag, a fiddle tune in F. The other guitarist put a clamp at the fifth fret, which is where my lead playing starts, so I had to compress the range of my soloing. And on such a tune a much prefer using closed three or four notes chords for a good bouncing feel - it's not a Carter Family song. I've said this before: capo use is idiomatic. It's not because of purism, hard-core traditionalism, reverence or even idolatry for Ole Bill (whom many have not even seen perform) that BG mando players avoid capoing, except for very special effects (which may be more special than effective).

    And, please, on any technical or didactical topic, never advise a beginner to do whatever it takes, whatever works for you, etc., because beginners as a rule are very poor judges of that. They may not even be clear about their goals.

  24. #74

    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Capo is fine for banjo and guitar. That is the thread header so why is everyone using the example of the guitar with a capo as a justification for using it on mando i.e. Tony Rice used one on the guitar so I can use it on the mando. We
    already know that it's OK for the guitar, that's part of the basic premise in the title.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by greg_tsam View Post
    ... just an attempt to inject a little levity and humor in a thread [de]void of it.
    Actually, there has been plenty of humor here, and some of the funniest posts are the ones which address the oh-so-important question expressed in the title in an oh-so-serious manner.

    It seems it's time to revisit the OP - as often happens, the thread has wandered far afield. Interesting to see that most people have been addressing the question expressed in the title, but not the question expressed in the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmando View Post
    Being a guitar player I could not function doing bluegrass without a capo. I have played some banjo in the past and a capo was essential. All the licks used are then identical with the capo. It is accepted in the bluegrass world to use a capo. I went to a mandolin seminar and the guy had a capo on his mandolin. He said his teeth were cut on a banjo, his main keys are G, C, D, A. But for B, Bb, E...he uses a capo. How many here use a capo?
    Two very different questions - one cut and dry, the other eye-catching and apparently inflammatory - which have little to do with each other. If the intent of the title question was to attract attention, it worked. Perhaps only those who use capos should be ringing in, and the rest should just move on. I think I'll move on ... The OP did - over a week ago!


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmando View Post
    Thanks folks for the input...I just ordered a Paige bamjo/mando capo!
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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