Who made the first "Celtic" mandolins?

[nkforster]

Now I know fine well Celtic music can be played on most mandolins, this post is about the mandolin design which tends to get referred to as the "Celtic" design.

Does anyone know who made the first "Celtic" style mandolin? And when?

When I say "Celtic" style what I'm referring to are mandolins shaped rather like an onion, as apposed to an A model which is more like a shallot!

I'm asking as I was about to write a post for my blog about them but realised I didn't know! I've made loads of them, but their heritage is a bit of a mystery.

One thing I do know is my old boss Sobell said when he started making them, customers wanted a mini version of the cittern he made, so that's what he did. Which suggests the Celtic bouzouki and citterns pre date the mandolins. So were talking mid seventies.

But was Stefan the first? Were other UK or Irish makers having a go prior?

Who's got the earliest one?

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

[mandolinstew]

Saint Patrick made the first Celtic mandolin.

[Dagger Gordon]

I should think that you know as much about it as anyone, Nigel.

Certainly Dave Richardson of the Boys Of The Lough was playing both octave and regular mandolins made by Stefan pretty early on. I forget what tuning he used on the octave but both instruments were very prominent on the BOTL line-up with Robin, Cathal, Aly and Dave.
In the mid-seventies a lot of Scottish bands used a lot of Sobell instruments - particularly the Battlefield Band in the line-up with Jamie McMenemy. I'm pretty sure Brian McNeill played both 10 string cittern and what I think he might have called his 'big' mandolin. That whole plucked string thing over Alan Reid's pedal organ defined their early sound - before they started using electric keyboards.
I'm not sure when Andy Irvine started using Sobell instruments. Prior to that did he not use a Gibson?

[Pete Jenner]

The mandolin isn't a traditional Irish instrument and I think was introduced to Ireland in the 60s. Certainly when we were listening to the Dubliners in the mid sixties there was no mandolin but there was tenor banjo. I would assume the mandolin was probably first seen in Dublin - probably at O'Donoghue's and came on the heels of Johnny Moynihan introducing the bouzouki.

If you really want to know, why don't you give Joe Foley a call. His number is around here somewhere.

[Jim Garber]

I would imagine that the "celtic" mandolin, similar to other transplants into the music such as bouzouki, came from elsewhere from players who found an instrument that appealed to the sound they wanted. I would think a good candidate for the source would be Portuguese or Brazilian mandolins which have similar shape and construction. This is just my theory -- I would love to hear if anyone has more concrete info.

In fact. I would imagine that what we call Irish Traditional Music today is made up of many transplanted instruments: bouzouki, guitar, accordion/melodeon, concertina, banjo and mandolin. I suppose the harp, fiddle, the uilleann pipes and flute go back much further than these transplants tho they may have been brought in at lone time or another. What we consider ITM these days is really a set of styles developed within the last few decades.

[Marty Jacobson]

Nigel, you might find this thread interesting, showing a distinctly onion-shaped instrument from 1943.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...oto-collection

Vermeer painted several onion-shaped citterns, like this one from 1630-32.


I think this shape comes from pretty deep in folk memory. Lots of farm implements and fishing tools have a similar shape. And as you well know, it's not only beautiful but very practical for building instruments, so I would venture that it could have cropped up at any time and from any quarter.

[Pete Jenner]

This is pretty accurate on the history of the Irish bouzouki.

[Perry Babasin]

Don't forget Great Britain. During this same time period in the mid to late 60s British folk-rock bands like Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span were introducing their English brand of "Celtic" mandolin, not the instruments per se but the playing style. This had way more influence over me, living in California in the LA area, as there was little traditional Bluegrass.

[Colin Lindsay]

This is pretty accurate on the history of the Irish bouzouki.

Just think of it all in terms of the universe and the big bang theory. In the beginning all instruments were invented in Ireland. Then they expanded out across the world and were adopted by all other races before finally finding their way back to Ireland. By the time the Romans brought the bagpipes and the returning Crusaders were importing middle-Eastern instruments such as the lute, based on the Oud, the Irish already had them. Even the didgeridoo was first made around Tralee and adopted by wandering Aborigines on holiday in Cork…

Runs away to avoid thrown heavy things….

[Pete Jenner]

Here is an excerpt from Andy Irvine's bio from his website. Clearly he was playing mandolin in Ireland in the early sixties but not necessarily playing celtic music on it. Later of course he owned many Sobells including his famous guitar shaped bouzouki but it would be interesting to find out who made the early mandolins and what style they were.

"Here on a Friday night I could earn 10 bob by singing my Woody Guthrie songs. I was also playing the mandolin at this time and was influenced by Johnny Moynihan, whose musical taste was as quirky as mine. We sang long ballads that we learned from the Child Collection, we sang songs from the "Radio ballads" that Ewan McColl, Peggy Seeger and Charles Parker had made for the BBC, we sang Old Timey songs from the American tradition and we sang and played songs and tunes that we heard on Radio Eireann, collected and presented by Ciarán MacMathúna and his like."

From: http://andyirvine.com/bio/bio-3.html

Jim, perhaps you could identify the bowlback Andy is playing in the photo on that site.

[journeybear]

So then, it was not O'Gibson of Kalamazoo, County Kalamazoo? I didn't think so ...

But a related question I've often wondered, how did the Irish bouzouki come to be called that, when it bears only a passing resemblance to the Greek bouzouki? Was the instrument introduced to The Emerald Isle by Greeks, and then adapted? Or is there another explanation (or several)?

I suppose the answer is found in those articles, but ...

[Pete Jenner]

In case the Wikipedia article didn't make it clear enough, the first Irish bouzoukis WERE Greek.

[foldedpath]

The mandolin isn't a traditional Irish instrument and I think was introduced to Ireland in the 60s. Certainly when we were listening to the Dubliners in the mid sixties there was no mandolin but there was tenor banjo. I would assume the mandolin was probably first seen in Dublin - probably at O'Donoghue's and came on the heels of Johnny Moynihan introducing the bouzouki.

The appearance in public stage performance might date to the 60's, although the whole idea of stage performance starts about there, doesn't it? As far as it not being a "traditional Irish instrument," there are references to mandolins that go back much further. Here's something I posted in thesession.org a while back:

-------------------
"It may have received a boost in exposure with the trad revival bands of the 60’s and 70’s, but it’s been around for a while. Here’s a reference from the Chieftains’ "official" biography, about the music environment fiddler Martin Fay grew up in (page 39):

"As a young boy Martin remembers hearing his uncle Andy Kelly, who was a famous mandolin player in traditional circles. But the music didn’t impress the young boy any more than the other kinds of music he was hearing at the time."

Fay was born in 1936 and raised in Dublin. If he had an uncle who had already established a reputation as a famous mandolin player when he was a young boy, then it had to be at least somewhat popular in Irish trad as far back as the 1930’s and maybe the 1920’s. That was the time mandolin orchestras became popular in the USA, but I don’t know if there’s a connection. Might be a stretch."
-------------------

I assume that mandolin would have been an Italian bowlback, but I suppose it's not inconceivable that it could have been a Gibson or some other American-made mandolin, brought over by a visiting relative.

[Pete Jenner]

Wow - nice bit of info.

[Ellen T]

Just think of it all in terms of the universe and the big bang theory. In the beginning all instruments were invented in Ireland. Then they expanded out across the world and were adopted by all other races before finally finding their way back to Ireland. By the time the Romans brought the bagpipes and the returning Crusaders were importing middle-Eastern instruments such as the lute, based on the Oud, the Irish already had them. Even the didgeridoo was first made around Tralee and adopted by wandering Aborigines on holiday in Cork…

Runs away to avoid thrown heavy things….

And now we finally know who to blame for the o'banjo.

[Nevin]

Mandolins have been around since at least the 17th century. Its hard to believe they didn't make their way to Scotland, Ireland, Brittany, etc. until the 1960's.

[nkforster]

Nigel, you might find this thread interesting, showing a distinctly onion-shaped instrument from 1943.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...oto-collection

Vermeer painted several onion-shaped citterns, like this one from 1630-32.


I think this shape comes from pretty deep in folk memory. Lots of farm implements and fishing tools have a similar shape. And as you well know, it's not only beautiful but very practical for building instruments, so I would venture that it could have cropped up at any time and from any quarter.

That Finnish chap's work is very interesting Marty thanks.

I had a feeling it wouldn't take long for this thread to veer off course!

I'm fairly familiar with the "Irish bouzouki" story and there are several versions of that. Mind in every one of them the maker is English!

Perhaps a different approach might work?

Does anyone know when Roger Bucknall of Fylde started making mandolins? Or if John Bailey or Peter Abnett made them? Anyone got a picture?

That's a good point about the musicians though...they would use whatever was available, whether it be an American or Neapolitan mandolin. At some point someone would have commissioned an instrument. And that would have been the first one. I wonder who?

Nigel
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

[Dagger Gordon]

Here is a live recording of Rob MacKillop playing a wee early music instrument called a mandour. He talks a bit about it at the start.

https://soundcloud.com/robmackillop/...p/sets/mandour

[PseudoCelt]

I'm not sure when Andy Irvine started using Sobell instruments. Prior to that did he not use a Gibson?

I think he started using Sobell instruments in the early 80s. Prior to that, he had a Gibson A3 (which was stolen) then an A - he said that he wanted a Gibson mandolin because that's what Woody Guthrie played. He also played a Gibson H1 mandola, a waldzither, a Portuguese guitarra and various round- and flat-backed bouzoukis, including a Manson, and guitar-shaped bouzoukis by Sobell, Fylde and, randomly, Takamine.

Does anyone know when Roger Bucknall of Fylde started making mandolins? Or if John Bailey or Peter Abnett made them?http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

The Fylde website says that the Lucetta mandolin was "first made as a carved top mandolin in the early 1970s". I'd love to see one - maybe Roger Bucknall has a photo? Peter Abnett's catalogue lists mandolins and gives some dimensions, but I've never seen or heard of one.

Sobell may have been the first to build mandolins with traditional music in mind.

Patrick

[allenhopkins]

Off-the-wall speculation; I see a lot of waldzithers with those "onion" bodies. Could they be the inspiration for the "Celtic" bouzouki/cittern, and later mandolin, body shape? Waldzithers have been around for quite a while.

[Gan Ainm]

A few more points to consider: As someone else mention the Brits like Steeleye were doing it in the 60's and the best of that lot was likely Dave Swarbrick and his bud Martin Carthy who liked the old Gibsons (one of them gigged with an ancient Orville Gibson!). Somewhere in there Mick Moloney was doing his thing in Ireland with Sweeney's Men- not sure what he was playing then but on his two important early US releases, which kind of re-defines Irish Mando pick style, he was playing Gibson round hole (A2?) which is when I decided I had to have one, so I would sound just like him...(why didn't THAT work?) And Tenor banjo being reinvented for Irish in a parallel and cross-influential way. (Can I have my PhD now?)
In the pure speculative mode it is likely that O'Carolans work would have been played now and again on the mando of it's day, the Neapolitan or Portugues styles of bowlbacks.
If you think of the crossover between renaissance/Barouque dance tunes and the Irish trad tunes, early Bowlbacks and Citterns probably can claim the prize as first "Celtic mandolins". Then Johnny M and Alec Finn came along, with the long neck Bowlbacks in the form of the Greek 'zouk, and the cycle started all over...
Now the whistle players really got something to brag on with that millennium's old bone flute fragment... bet there were some righteous jigs played on that in it's day.

[Dagger Gordon]

Draw your own conclusions from this video of three English players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA6Uq65YorQ

[Gan Ainm]

Draw your own conclusions from this video from video of three English players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA6Uq65YorQ

Thanks for that Dagger! That was of course "late in the game" in '81, RT's "first Celtic mandolin" likely a shrunken Strat. (I pretty much worship anything he touches). But I'm not quite sure what conclusion I am supposed to draw other than "how come I wasn't there?

[Dagger Gordon]

But I'm not quite sure what conclusion I am supposed to draw other than "how come I wasn't there?

What conclusion?

Good question.

Well.
a. These guys are English but the sound is pretty 'Celtic', I would say. I would also say that there have been (very) few bands with three such good mandolinists in the line-up.
b. I find it difficult to tell what makes they are playing, but I think Swarb and Thompson are probably playing Gibsons. Not sure about Pegg.

But in answer to the original question "Who made the original "Celtic" mandolins, I think (with the evidence of Irvine, Swarbrick, Thompson, Moloney and dozens of others) it would be difficult to say it was not Gibson.

Having said that, these instruments were obviously not made to be Celtic instruments per se.

[John Kinn]

I think Pegg plays an Ibanez. The other two I'm sure are teens or twenties Gibsons.