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Thread: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

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    Default Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Being a guitar player I could not function doing bluegrass without a capo. I have played some banjo in the past and a capo was essential. All the licks used are then identical with the capo. It is accepted in the bluegrass world to use a capo. I went to a mandolin seminar and the guy had a capo on his mandolin. He said his teeth were cut on a banjo, his main keys are G, C, D, A. But for B, Bb, E...he uses a capo. How many here use a capo?

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Not to sound off-putting, but this is a well defined topic. The general consensus currently maintains that a capo is OK but for the possible exception of the hard-core Bluegrass traditionalists and a few others. Nevertheless, we usually manage about two or three pages whenever it comes up, so that's cool too.
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I use a capo. "Hi, my name is Jeff and I am a capo user." "Hi Jeff"

    I do ok without a capo from three sharps to two flats, and a little more at either end, and, of course, closed position riffs, melodies, double stops and chords can be moved into any key whatever. But there are advantages sometimes to a capo, for those infrequent, but not exactly rare times when I want the sound of that unfretted string against the melody, either as a drone, or as a constant alternate note in some back and forth picking, or to be able to grab on a slide down, leave open and move on - and the tune for what ever reason is not in the key where I do it that way.

    My main capo is a Shubb, but I also have a jet black Kyser, because I like the look, and how its a mineature of what the guitarits use. For fun I will sometimes emulate a guitarist friend of mine and put both my clip on tuner and my capo on the headstock, like she does.

    Capos have a place and can be a lot of fun. They can also become problimatical, which I am sure you will hear about.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Nothing wrong with a capo, but the mandolin fretboard is short and crowded enough already without shortening it even further. For me, it's more complicating and confusing than helpful. There really aren't many licks or moves that can't be replicated in a closed position just takes a little practice. Plus, you get to grouse and commiserate with the fiddle and bass while waiting for the guitar and banjo to move the #######' capo and get in tune.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I saw Ricky Skaggs and Kentucky Thunder at Gruene Hall in Gruene, TX a while back. We noticed his backup mando player (for when Ricky was playing guitar) was using a capo. We asked him about it after the concert. He said Ricky plays everything in B and E so it was just easier to back that up with a capo. Now I don't know if Ricky is Chief of the Bluegrass Police but I suspect he knows him. That being the case, allowing his second on mando to use a capo seems to be a form of endorsement.

    I'm thinking it's the symmetry of the instrument and the sometimes finicky tuning that makes most of us eschew the use of a capo. The 4-4-4-3-4 tuning of a guitar makes crazy open chords for some keys where a capo brings quick order. The 5-5-5 tuning on the mando make chording a very repetititve activity when using the closed forms. Capoing also generates tuning issues. A small difference that can pass between guitar courses can just annoy the heck out of you when it's between two strings on the same course.

    The mandola is another study. I wouldn't be without a capo for it. It's really suited for open chording so I need the capo to make it flexible. Also, the little increase in course length seems to reduce the instance of finicky tuning.

    If you are playing Bluegrass and going for that decided chop sound you may chuck your capo after a while. Open chord rhythym is not a Bluegrass motife. With either the four finger Monroe style (what Roland White calls "The Bluegrass Grip") or the more Jethroish three finger style, the Bluegrass chops are definitively rhythmic. Really, using a capo on a mandolin for Bluegrass would be to get that certain 'open string' sound to the melody.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    There are perfectly valid reasons for using a capo on a mandolin. To use a capo to avoid learning to play the mandolin to its fullest extent is not one of them.

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    Registered User Nick Royal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I use a capo when I want to play and sing in the key of E. (I am then using D chords.) I know I should learn "E" better,
    but somehow, the capo makes me enjoy that key more when I am singing songs I want in E.

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    Registered User Andy Alexander's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    A capo makes it possible to play a classic break in a different key to accommodate a singer's vocal range. However, with the already short string length of a mandolin, shortening it even more with a capo has a big effect on volume and tone.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I'm going to a birthday party next week for a woman I work with . Her husband is a first rate blues guitar player and he's invited people to bring instruments and jam. I want to bring my Saga electric mando, which I'm planning on capoing to play in E. In the long run maybe it would be best for me to learn to play in E without it, but this is sort of a one shot deal and I don't have the time to put into learning. A shortcut for sure, but one I'm perfectly happy to take.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    When I first taught myself the mandolin, I used the capo frequently (playing with a lot of Allison Krauss stuff--her first four albums and
    alot of her songs were in more difficult keys (B,Bb,Ab, etc). But when I started playing with actual human beings I found bluegrass mandolin players don't use capos much. To most, it's a pride thing I think; So I made myself learn all the chords in every key and have gotten much better because of that. So now my pride won't allow me the use of a capo on mandolin either. Yet nearly every guitar player in BG uses one (in fact I wonder sometimes if they know any keys other than G or C. While most rock guitar players learn barre chords early on and rarely use capos--in fact I don't see many rock guitar players that understand how to use a capo on guitar. But if they happen to use a mandolin on the rare song that calls for it, they have to use one. Go figure.
    My motto is there is nothing wrong with using the capo, but if the fiddle player can play without one, then ain't no way I'm using one. I would advise any musician-- be it guitar or mandolin--to learn as much as you can without a capo. But it is a must to know how to use one too. It simply makes you a more rounded musician and therefore you won't be stuck only playing one kind of music.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    You do whatever you have to do to make the sound you want to hear come out of the instrument. For some that means using a capo. For me it means not using a capo.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    If it's chords, then I don't have any strong feelings about it, one way or another. Use what works, although I wouldn't do this myself. Neck is too cramped as it is, and figuring out new chord shapes is fun.

    If we're talking single note melody lines, then I think the obvious answer is that if a fiddler doesn't need a capo, then you probably don't need one either.

    Follow the fiddlers... they've been working this scale length and tuning a heck of a lot longer than mandolin players.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    Follow the fiddlers... they've been working this scale length and tuning a heck of a lot longer than mandolin players.
    Define "a heck of a lot longer." Didn't the modern violin evolve in the 17th century? How much longer before the Neapolitan mandolin evolved?

    Which member of Ricky's band is it who uses a capo on a mandolin? I'm guessing it's not Andy Leftwich ... he told me he sticks to fiddle when he's playing with Ricky. Must be one of them other fellas.

    Anyway, I'm with Mike Bunting. Not having learned to play in the key of X is not a valid reason to use a capo. And E blues is pretty easy in standard tuning. There are 2-finger E (1220) and A (6200) chords, and the B chord is the easiest barre chord: 4467.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    If you feel the need to use a copo,then use one.Years back,i went to see the Lynn Morris Band when they were over here in the UK. Barry Mitterhoff was playing Mandolin with them. Now,i'd never even picked up a Mandolin at that time & knew zilch about playing one.I was amazed to see that Barry used a capo for some tunes,something i never thought Mandolin players used. He's one of the finest Mandolin players on the scene today,so,as far as i'm concerned,if i decided to use a capo,i'm in good company - so far, i haven't needed one ,but if ......,
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Yeah, E chord is best (for me) sans capo. Can blues it up easily with the flat 5 on the A string.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Tiny neck, tight fret spacing, sausage fingers = big mess for this guy.

    Do I have a mandolin capo? Yup, a Shubb.

    Do I use it? Yup. Every time I change strings. Really helps.

    They way I judge which capo design to use on guitar, and how to attach it is simple.

    Put it on and do an open B7 chord. If your hand doesn't bump into the capo, you're golden.
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    Registered User Jon Hall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Currently I use a "chicken choker" on one song in G#m. I like the sound of the open strings. Even on the 1st fret the capo gets in the way of my left hand.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I think it kind of depends on the sort of music you normally play and the sound you are looking for....

    I do not use a capo, but I normally don't use full chords either. The majority of the music I play, primarily blues, can be done with single string and double stops and it is usually no problem. My capo stopped working years ago and i see no need to replace it.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Thanks folks for the input...I just ordered a Paige bamjo/mando capo!

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIGE-PBE-BA...item5649281e58

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    I have a very good use for a capo. When I am working on a lot of old Bluegass I will capo on the first fret to play along with the recording. Sitting Alone I the Moonlight and My little Girl In Tennessee come to mind. I believe Flatt and Scruggs and Bill Monroe (at least sometimes)both tuned up a half step.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Define "a heck of a lot longer." Didn't the modern violin evolve in the 17th century? How much longer before the Neapolitan mandolin evolved?
    Well, let me rephrase that, or expand on it.

    First, I did say this was in regard to single note melody, and I was thinking about repertoire. A very large portion of the instrumental repertoire for mandolin is adapted from pre-existing fiddle music, whether it's classical, or Irish and related traditional music, or OldTime, or other "folk" fiddle-based music. It's just a natural fit for mandolin, due to the scale length and identical tuning. That body of music is for the most part much older than anything written specifically for mandolin. Often hundreds of years older.

    To the extent that we draw from that fiddle music repertoire -- and I'm not saying that all the music we play is from that source, although a heck of a lot of it is -- then it might be useful to think about why fiddlers don't need capos.

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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Some of the younger players like Aaron Williams or Spencer Strickland for Kenny & Amanda Smith play with lots of open string sounds. I haven't listened to them to try to figure out the keys - maybe they really do play everything in A or D, but I doubt it. I've often though they retune their mando for every track to get that open, ringing sound. You couldn't do that live, so I guess a capo would work.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    Of course you should do what you want. And if you are going to do it, do it with pride and flourish, not sheepishly.

    The problem is not using a capo to play in a certain key. The problem is NEEDING to use the capo to play in a certain key.

    And even then, the priority is to be playing the music, not "fixin' to play" the music. Learning and practicing are all great things, but please keep in mind they are all "fixin' to play" the music. So use'em if you want to, for what ever reason you want to, and enjoy the music.

    Now, in a separate thread, it would be good to discuss some tricks and tips for playing in odd keys. Why? To give everyone the opportunity to discover what cool stuff occurs "out there" that can be used everywhere. What if you learn to play blues in E and come up with some really cool riffs, and then need a capo to use those riffs in G. Wouldn't that be fun.
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    After 40 years of playing both guitar and mandolin I have found that there is a snoot factor when using a capo with a mandolin. This has always cracked me up when in guitar for instance the best players in the world from James Taylor to Segovia use or have used a capo. (I saw them both) I think that many of these stuck up, snoot snobs do not realize that many players (like me) play mountain , celtic or bluegrass just to have fun with friends and it is never intended to "master" the mandolin like say a classical player would maybe want to do. Wait! I take that back! I saw Segovia use one in an entire set!!
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    Default Re: Capo is fine for banjo and guitar...why not mandolin?

    One of the best parkin lot pickers I've ever heard used a capo so I started with one. For me though, I found out that I learned a lot more about the neck once I gave up the capo. However, if it works for you..........use it and have fun.

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