Duff F5 broken headstock!!!

[grandcanyonminstrel]

'Looking for a second opinion or two on a recent repair:

A few months ago a local customer brought a nice Duff F5 that had a bad night at the pub and took a fall, breaking the headstock almost completely off at the nut / truss rod pocket area. If it was my personal mandolin or one I had built, I would have made a new neck. We talked about a few ideas and I glued the break together with hot hide glue, everything tested solid for a week and then strung it back up for a while. No movement or issues, so I went ahead and did a nice finish touch up. Overall a very good repair, quick turnaround, and I charged him about 50% of the normal price because he is a good local musician and a friend.

Stuff breaks, we all get in a place where we need a quick fix now and then. I like the idea that he doesn't just keep the mandolin in a glass case and never take it out of the house. He plays it hard, he gigs with it, he uses it for what it was designed.

Three months pass with no issues and I get a call yesterday. The mandolin was down at a big outdoor festival in Florida this month, traveling in a gig bag. The specific details are not completely clear from my end, but... somehow the neck joint fails. In a hasty decision, it got passed to another "luthier" who heads to Wallmart, gets a bottle of Titebond and a clamp and "fixes" it overnight. Yesterday I get the phone call for help after he got back in town.

My experience with probably over a 1000 instruments in three decades of repairs and new builds is that this is the worst place you could ever choose to use Titebond; it is basically a fancy plastic that is subject to creep and will almost always fail. Hot hide glue is the only thing I'd use here, and even it has limitations if the joint is really trashed or you push it too far. I've never seen Titebond hold over the long haul in this area. Additionally, I see it as the joint has now been compromised- a big mixture of several types of glue in a weak area. If he had brought it to me after any joint failure, I would have redone any repairs needed with no charge. Someone else mucking about with the Wallmart "repair" is a a completely different story and a deal breaker. I don't want to see it or touch it, but I also know that one disgruntled local can do a lot more damage than just this repair.

'Just wanted to get a second opinion or two from the other luthiers around here, mainly on the idea of not bringing the work back to me after the failure and then wanting follow up, rather than the never ending Titebond vs hot hide glue banter. I know the owner of this mandolin pays close attention to the cafe.

Paul Duff, are you out there lurking? If not, hopefully one of his neighbors will go pound on the door.

Thanks everyone.

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com

[Will Kimble]

It is OK to say "no" sometimes.

Sounds to me like it is time for the mandolin to go back to Paul for a new neck. As good as Paul's work is, it deserves to be right. And sorry - that is not covered under the warranty.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[John Duncan]

Wow. Despite your predicament James, that is some funny stuff.

[barrangatan]

Just my 2 cents: Since the gentleman is a friend, rather than saying 'ho' outright, I think you should have a honest discussion with him about the probability that whatever repair you attempt this time around, it may not hold because of the temporary repair done earlier. If you think having a new neck built is the better way to go, suggest it, and let him make the decision. I think if the friend is sensible and reasonable he'd understand, and will choose his options accordingly.

[Big Joe]

Titebond is a very good glue for such applications if you clean the joint and clamp it properly. Many very good instruments are built with that for the neck joint. I have used it for many, many years with no issue with creeping. If you prep the pieces properly, use the right amount, and then clamp it and leave it in clamps it can work very well. In many cases it will hold better than hide glue. The neck probably does not need replacing, but the neck reset. If the joint is properly cleaned and refit it should not be a problem. At that point you can use hide glue if you choose. Whatever caused the original damage could have loosened the neckjoint with failure showing down the road. That is not an anomaly. Of course, I do not have the mandolin in front of me to give any accurate recomendations. Paul makes a fine mandolin with a good and well joined neck.

[sunburst]

I'm waiting for the finish to cure on this one right now. Those are two CF splines, tightly fit and epoxied in place.

[PJ Doland]

That's an F-2 I bought in that condition that I'm having John fix up for me.

It had been repaired by the previous owner with HHG, and the repair failed.

In addition to the epoxy and CF splines, I'm also wondering how much strength the sandwich of brand new (unbroken) overlays is going to add. I'd be surprised if it won't be consequential, structurally speaking.

[jim simpson]

I think John's solution makes a lot of sense particularly when you consider how little surface area there is to glue. I like the sandwhich idea as well where a top and back surface overlay can also add to the surface strength.

[sunburst]

Though I have added new front and back overlays to the F2, the amount of strength added by them is much less than the splines should add.
First of all, it wasn't so much that the previous repair failed, it got broken again. Almost all of the second break was in a different place, very little of the previous glue exposed. I glued it back together with HHG before doing the splines.
The back overlay might add a little strength, but As we can see, there isn't much of it across the break, only a small width and not much continuing down the neck shaft beyond the break.
The splines are acting like beams, and they go as deep into the piece as possible. I used a contour gauge to plan the positions of the splines and make sure I didn't cut through the back of the neck cutting the slots.

[sunburst]

If the break is right at the nut, splines can still be put in, either through the fingerboard followed by inlaying matching wood, or by removing the 'board and re-gluing it later.

[BradKlein]

It does seem to me that when dealing with an instrument of some value, from a living builder, replacing the neck is the best option in all respects. Even the substantial cost will be mostly recouped in the eventual sale price of the mandolin, no? No matter how great the repair after a broken headstock, the instrument will be discounted substantially when it comes time to sell, and all instruments are sold someday. Replace the neck, and the owner restores the instrument to its original resale value, and gets many years of playing a sound instrument, without the gradual or sudden failure of the repair, which happens often in my experience. Maybe not the majority of headstock repairs, but very often.

[Kerry Krishna]

Grandcanyon, how about this for a compromise? Check the neck angle, and see if it is good. If it is, just leave it alone.
If, something in the future the neck angle starts to slip, you and him can have another conversation about doing the work for whatever you think is adequate compensation to you. I would be willing to bet that the neck to body join was broken when the headstock was broke, but there really was no way to tell is there?
Speaking personally, I have refused doing 'repairs of other folks repairs' many times.

Your responsibility was 100% taken care of, in that you did a terrific headstock repair. You are NOT responsible for the neck joint failing, or even of not knowing that it had failed. As such you are also not responsible for cleaning up someone else's mess (taking the neck off and cleaning and reattaching with HHG).
You did all that was asked of you, and if the owner of the mando says that it is your responsibility to take the neck off and fix it, he would be sadly mistaken.
You were stand up and did your job.

[sunburst]

It does seem to me that when dealing with an instrument of some value, from a living builder, replacing the neck is the best option in all respects.

I agree with this statement. Obviously, the F2 is a different case than the Duff. A new neck, built by Paul Duff, would be the best remedy for the situation of this thread, IMO.

[Malcolm G.]

Just another thought - if the customer is a hard workin', hard travellin', hard ramblin' musician - maybe a hard case?

[Big Joe]

With the right repair the neck will be stronger than it was originally and will not break at the same place again. However, many repairs are not that good. We often have to redo what others have done in headstock repairs. They can be done with carbon graphite in a way that will be better than original and can be guaranteed not to break again in that location. It can also be an invisible repair. Given the option of a non original neck, even if built by the original builder, or the original neck stronger than it would be with a replacement, the repaired neck seems to be a better option. It is also less expensive. Anything you MAY lose in resale may well be made up by the decreased cost of repair.

John's work on the F2 is certainly a good way to repair that headstock, but there are other methods with CF that can be even stronger. In a repair such as this where the headstock is broken across the nut there are only a couple options. One is the way John is doing it, the other our method (proprietary). If you just glue the joint it does not have enough surface or ability to handle the stress of the strings to hold. I have seen a good number where the repairs were done with dowels or metal inserts similar to the way Johh has done that did not hold either. The CF works much better than most other materials for this kind of repair.

We have a Les Paul in our shop now that had a similar break as the F2 pictured above. There was quite a bit of wood missing from the break. Someone had put a steel rod into the headstock and neck to attempt the repair. He used some kind of epoxy. However, there was still quite a bit of missing wood on the back and front of the neck / headstock. It was unplayable. We had to undo everything the other quy did to repair the neck. It has been repaired and is not in the spray booth for finish touch up over the repaired area. The finish is invisible and has restored the original neck on this vintage Les Paul Custom.

Headstock repairs are always interesting and present interesting challenges. Ensuring the headstock angle is correct for the year the instrument was made is critical as is ensuring the headstock is on straight. We have seen numerous over the years where these issues were not right.

I still believe keeping the original is a better choice than replacing if it can be done. I have not seen a neck yet that cannot be repaired. I have seen some that were questionable, but once the repair is done I have never seen an unhappy owner. The problem is there are still too many bad repairs when it comes to broken headstocks. It can be done just as easy and just as good by doing it right the first time than having it done wrong and then having it redone. The decision to repair or replace is knowing what your luthier can do and ensure you are comfortable with what you will get.

[Spruce]

Wow. Despite your predicament James, that is some funny stuff.

Yeah, you shoulda waited to post this tomorrow....
Along with the "Monteleone Grand Artist Meets Mercedes Air-Bag" post I'm planning on posting one of these April Firsts....

[pjlama]

This thread gave me a really bad nightmare last night. I dreamt that my mandolin got broken right in the middle of the neck and then the lower treble bout just cracked off. I know this sounds stupid but I was very distressed, I can't remember having a real nightmare in years but this was bad. FWIW I agree on just being as honest as you can with owner on your prognosis and concerns about the temporary repair creating further problems. Sorry for poaching in on a luthiers focused thread but I had to share.