Behlen Violin Varnish with TransTint Dyes

[Tom Haywood]

I have wanted to try the Behlen's for some time but wonder how to deal with the orangish color. Any experience here or advice for putting it on over waterbase dye such as the TransTint or ColorTone? I'm getting ready to do one in a dark tobacco brown slight burst, and wonder if this might be the wrong (or right) varnish for that.

[Jim Hilburn]

Most shellac has a yellow orange tone but when applied as a thin finish it will at most just add a slight amber tone.

[Tom Haywood]

Thanks, Jim. I looked up the previous threads about this varnish before posting this thread, and the comments all looked pretty negative, especially about drying time. The silence here speaks loudly, but I'm not sure what it is saying. The mando in the picture at the left is done in a clear spar varnish (polyurethane) over blonde shellac, no stain. I intend to do an oil varnish over shellac over transtint dye on my current build. I'm mainly curious just how orange the Behlen varnish is and whether anybody has any positive comments about the stuff.

[oldwave maker]

I bought an old bottle of that stuff at woodworkers supply long ago for a fiddle refin, it was completely dry in less than 4 years. I suspect it would harden much quicker on planets closer to the sun, with less atmosphere.

[Michael Lewis]

Behlen's violin varnish is pretty light in color, basically I consider it 'clear" though it has a bit of color. It is a pretty tough finish and dries well enough if it is thin. We all want thin finish, don't we?

[Jim Hilburn]

It seems to have a pretty bad reputation. I think there's a shelf life problem with it. The only bottle I ever bought was in a clearance bin and while I never used it on an instrument, on test pieces I got some cracking and splitting, a sign of shellac being too old.

[Michael Lewis]

Cracking and splitting may be signs of shellac being too thick and getting totally dry, or the wood under it moving. The Behlen's formula has both mastic and sandrac which help make it a bit tougher and glossier than without. Possibly your bottle from the clearance table had settled out. Usually as shellac ages in the bottle it dries slower when it is used. I think that is what Bill was referring to when he said his dried well in less than 4 years.

The bottles I have purchased over the years have been pretty consistent and dependable.

[Tom Haywood]

Beginning to sound like it is not too bad if you can get a fresh bottle. And perhaps not as orange as Stew Mac's warning led me to believe. The amber shellac tint would be OK, but not orange. Michael, thanks for the gloss comment. I am curious about the glossiness and whether it needs a french polish.

[Jim Hilburn]

I've alway felt Behlens wouldn't put out a product that wasn't top shelf. Sometimes power of suggestion can have a real effect on your judgements of products or methods and some guys here came down pretty hard on it several years ago although I have no reason to doubt they had problems with it. And I wouldn't doubt my splitting experience wasn't something I did wrong as it was when I first was trying different varnish options.
I had a very early Stew Mac finishing video where they were using Zinnsser shellac and had a splitting issue with something they did on an electric guitar. They blamed it on too old shellac but maybe it was just too thick.

[jackc]

Old shellac does not dry well, especially if it's applied heavily, and since the Behlen product is mostly shellac, that would apply for it too. Sandarac is a hard resin, but mastic is a relatively soft one and should make the varnish more elastic. I think I'd be careful to follow Michael's advice and thin it well, then give each coat plenty of time to dry. Normally with a spirit varnish you don't have to wait long to recoat--maybe an hour--but with the mastic in this varnish, I'd wait several hours, maybe overnight, between coats. If you apply it thinly, this means many days spent in the varnish process, then a couple of weeks to a month after the last coat before polishing. That's a normal time for an oil varnish. Usually a spirit varnish is quicker to apply.

[Tom Haywood]

Mid term report. This is my first effort with spirit varnish. The pictured mandolin at left in white is the one being varnished. I rubbed on the bare wood a two color vintage sunburst in amber and tobacco brown with TransTint dyes. Three very light coats of Zinser spray shellac sealed it. The shellac caused the brown dye to bleed a little on the spruce. Probably should have let it dry longer, but it adds to the distressed look. I used the Stew-Mac instructions for their violin kit as a guide for applying the Behlen Violin Varnish. I decided to brush it on per their instructions. Used a new Purdy 2" china bristle brush. The first four coats were applied under extremely hot and humid conditions. I thinned the first three coats 25% with denatured alcohol. The fourth coat was not thinned. I did not use a retarder. Dry sanded after the second coat with 320 grit wet/dry. Waiting to sand after the fourth coat.

[Tom Haywood]

First observation is that you have to put the Behlens on fast under a good light. It gets tacky within a few seconds and drags heavily. I also had a few small runs and droops from hanging the mandolin to dry. These sanded or rubbed out OK. Second observation is that the Behlens does take a long time to dry, so I can see it being difficult for deadline production work. I waited three days to sand the first round. It really wasn't long enough, but it worked out OK. 24 hours between unsanded coats was not quite long enough, but again it worked out OK. Third observation is that I am really quite pleased so far. It gives a very professional looking finish, nice clear shine, very little amber color, and appears to hide my mistakes fairly well. The only frustration so far is how long I'm having to wait to play this mandolin again.

[Tom Haywood]

I should add that I really like how easily everything mixes and cleans up with the alcohol.

[Tom Haywood]

Pictures - in the white and before level sanding.

[Tom Haywood]

Final report. I'm very happy with the varnish. It did require a lot of patience, but the varnish dried sufficiently in 2-3 days between coats and three weeks final before installing hardware. Humidity during that time was pretty low for Georgia - 30% to 50%. I did the body with a brush. Reached an endless cycle at five coats between adding more and sanding. Gave up at seven coats and left it a little thick and rough, but it actually created a wonderful tone and didn't reduce the volume. Several people have said it already has on old instrument tone. The more it cures, the more I like the look and tone. I did the headstock separate because I did the neck with tung oil and I had to wait for the inlay pieces to arrive. I rubbed the varnish on the headstock with tampons made from a cotton Tshirt. Very nice thin smooth finish, and I recommend that method. Now if I can figure out how to get a decent picture...

[Tom Haywood]

Photos.

[Dennis Russell]

Thankyou you Tom Mando, I have a problem with this stuff curing, I am building a Violin kit I bought from Stew Mac, the lady that wants this instrument wants it dark like her old fiddle, I have mixed a portian of Tobbaco brown with the varnish to get the desired appearance, I used a mixture of 50/50 mix of alcohol and varnsih with stain in it. problem is it takes forever to cure, while trying to polish with pumice to get the nubs off, I had to hold on to the violin but it left fingerprints and hand prints all over the instrument, this is after three days of drying time. I let it dry another two days, same thing but not as bad, I guess I will let it hang in my shop for a month and see what happens. the temperature when applying was 74 degrees in the shop and about 34% humidity and a dew point of 28 %, not sure if that has any effect on it or not..........................Dennis

[Tom Haywood]

Last August, one year after varnishing, I left my Snark tuner on the headstock for about three hours during a gig. The rubber feet pressed through the varnish and left a bad looking spot. Yesterday, one and half years after varnishing, I took the strings off that have been on the mandolin for six months. The bridge had to be knocked off with a hammer and block. The varnish had bonded to the feet and pulled up clean to the wood, taking the shellac sealer coat with it. I am very careful about temperatures with my instruments and I play this mandolin every day, so I believe this stuff has not cured even though it is a thin finish and has been hard for a long time. I still really like the sound, the feel and the look, but it seems like some additional curing techniques are necessary if you want to use this stuff for a customer. Any thoughts?

[Andrew Faltesek]

The Behlen spirit shellac is not an inferior product in terms of ingredients, its just that any spirit shellac has limited shelf life and the resins/gums just don't harden well after prolonged solution with alcohol. I'd say six months is about the limit.

For best results mix your own batch of fresh shellac. BT&C "Tiger Flakes" super-blonde dewaxed shellac is about $43. a pound; dissolve in denatured(poison) alcohol or everclear(you can drink this alcohol when you get frustrated during application!) to the pound-cut desired and later tint to preference. No way to get around the application difficulties...flashes off right quick.

You might try bathing the instrument in UV light which is a curing component of sunlight concentrated. I employed UV on a recent violin project, using 4 T8 bulbs and rated ballast on a scrap-wood fixture. This allowed overnight turnaround for the next coat. Worked very well...looked like this:

[Tavy]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does UV do for an evaporative finish like shellac in alcohol?

[Andrew Faltesek]

No, you're smart. I should have noted the violin finish was oil varnish which definitely responds to UV(sorry); but I thought to mention the UV for shellac as when I had used the Behlen product on a basketcase bowl-back repair, after the coats had dried (low humidity environment), exposing it to sunlight for several days seemed to help with the lingering softness. UV will have a smaller effect on the dried resin film of shellac, but I thought maybe some concentration might help out with Tommando's issue. Fresh shellac dries quickly and gets very hard. Could it be that there is no remedy for the Behlen problem, especially where pressure is involved?

[Tavy]

I suspect if the shellac has gone off, and isn't drying then yes, there may well be no remedy.

That said, applying shellac outside on a warm sunny day can't be beaten