Confused on Loars

[billkilpatrick]

All this hoo-ha over an entry level mandolin! I am amazed.

... sniff

[JeffD]

I have my father's "Ted Williams" fly rod. Its a beauty of a fiberglass rod too. Ted Williams was an avid fisherman, but thats not why anyone ever heard of him.

[MikeEdgerton]

I have my father's "Ted Williams" fly rod. Its a beauty of a fiberglass rod too. Ted Williams was an avid fisherman, but thats not why anyone ever heard of him.

Exactly. When I think of Ted Williams the first thing that comes to my mind is cryogenics.

[journeybear]

Hmmm? He used to fish around here all the time. There's a fishing tournament named after him up in Clearwater. What else did he do?

[Ed Goist]

Exactly. When I think of Ted Williams the first thing that comes to my mind is...

Him being John Glenn's wingman during the Korean War.

[Brutus1999]

By A-style, do you mean "no scroll" or do you mean "round hole?" I assume you mean "no scroll" -- and there are some really great sounding "no scroll" (True A-style) mandos out there. (There are also some great round hole models == which can be "F style" if they have a scroll, but the new round hole with scroll seem to mainly used by those who want to play jazz on an art-deco style instrument...

[MikeEdgerton]

Him being John Glenn's wingman during the Korean War.

Wait a minute.... I thought Chuck Norris was John Glenn's wingman.... and Chuck wasn't even in an airplane. That's what I heard anyway.

[Scott Tichenor]

Four truths:

1) It's all marketing, which has nuthin' to do with the music.
2) Every fiddle is a Strad.
3) Mike Bunting is correct.
4) University of Kansas has won all of their previous NCAA tournament championship games in a Leap Year (1952, 1988, 2008), and therefore since it is a Leap Year, will thus win again.

Now watch this awesome discussion derail

[MikeEdgerton]

C'mon Scott, I think I already derailed it

[journeybear]

People have been trying, but it keeps coming back. That has me really confused.

Thanks for the tip on KU. Laying down a really big bet right now ...

[allenhopkins]

Extensive discussion of a very common phenomenon: the selection of brand labels for imported instruments, that try to evoke an association with respected (sometimes not so respected) US firms or individuals, now out of business. It's not just "Loar," obviously; it's "Washburn" and "Epiphone" and "Recording King" and "Regal" (which was a mid-range American firm, not one of the elite) and "Kay" (ditto) -- probably others I can't come up with. "Flatiron" is a special case, since it was a trademark Gibson owned, originally an independent company, then a sub-group of Gibson-made instruments, now a lower-end line of Asian imports.

And then the other labels that are supposed to evoke an American (or Irish, or Spanish) association:
Blue Ridge
Kentucky
Trinity College
Michael Kelly
Alvarez
Ibanez
Morgan Monroe
Loar
etc.

And the "gray area" of companies who put their established US labels on imports, either "semi-separate" lines like Fender's Squier, or certain models like Martin's Mexican-made ukuleles, or the Asian-made Guilds vs. the US-made Guilds. Gets hard to tell what is a product of the original US firm, what is contracted out to a foreign manufacturer, and to what extent the instrument is a product of the company whose label it bears.

Does it matter? Some folks really do want to "buy American," and may be surprised and disappointed to find that the instrument with a "US label" is not US-made. Not my attitude in general, more interested in value for the price, which is why in the past few years I've acquired a number of Asian-made instruments -- Eastman, Gold Tone, etc.

What bothers me a bit more, is the attempt to suggest an association that really doesn't exist; contemporary Loar instruments have nothing at all to do with Lloyd Loar, Epiphones with Epi Stathopoulos, Washburns with George Washburn Lyon. And Blue Ridge and Kentucky instruments only get to those areas of the US, after a long boat ride from China. I've always admired companies like Yamaha and Takamine that put their Asian names on their Asian-made instruments, and entered them in the world market to compete with American and European manufacturers. Toyota and Nissan don't seem to need to call themselves "Midwest Motors" or "American Eagle."

Just a curmudgeonly perspective. Names that evoke certain musical qualities don't bother me: Gold Tone, Aria (actually a modification of founder Shiro Arai's name), and so forth. And I'm ambivalent on Eastman; yes, "East" suggests Asia, but as a resident of Rochester, home of the Eastman School of Music, I suspect the labeling of their orchestral instruments was to suggest a connection with this major source of classical musicians.

[Mike Bunting]

Four truths:

1) It's all marketing, which has nuthin' to do with the music.
2) Every fiddle is a Strad.
3) Mike Bunting is correct.
4) University of Kansas has won all of their previous NCAA tournament championship games in a Leap Year (1952, 1988, 2008), and therefore since it is a Leap Year, will thus win again.

Now watch this awesome discussion derail

Well agreed on most points, esp. #3
not so much #4, Kentucky is Bill Monroe's home state, ergo. Hoo-ha!

[MikeEdgerton]

..."Epiphone" ... "Flatiron"...

Gibson owned both Epiphone and Flatiron. Is there really a difference between the two? They were both independent companies that were purchased by Gibson.

I don't know if they really belong in the discussion anyway.

I see it this way. Gibson chose to move their mandolin production from Kalamazoo to Montana then to Nashville. That is their right, they own the marque. If they choose to move the production of Epiphone and Flatiron to Asia it may not make some people happy but they own the marque and it is their right.

I see those actions as being totally different than creating a brand name that appears to be something it isn't. I have no problem by the way with the Loar, Kentucky, and the rest. It is marketing and that's fine with me but I do see a difference between those brand names and what Gibson has done.

People buy electronics all the time with American brand names on them that aren't made in the US. I've never heard anyone debate the value of a US made Apple computer vs one made overseas.

By the way, I understand Ted Willams was a scratch golfer as well. The things you find out here.

[wommbatt]

And then the other labels that are supposed to evoke an American (or Irish, or Spanish) association:
Blue Ridge
Kentucky
Trinity College
Michael Kelly
Alvarez
Ibanez
Morgan Monroe
Loar
etc.

oh wow, they really succeeded on fooling me. i was dead certain that trinity, kentucky, and monroe were american made brands. i'm so gullible haha

[hedgehog]

How is Ibanez associated with American made? I have Ibanez (and Epiphone) guitars. Nice instruments, but I never once associated them with anything American made.

[MikeEdgerton]

Epiphone was originally an American brand, Ibanez on the other hand, you are correct about that. To my knowledge it was always an imported brand.

[allenhopkins]

...they really succeeded on fooling me. i was dead certain that trinity, kentucky, and monroe were american made brands...

Which I think was the point in selecting those names -- perhaps not "fooling," but providing an association with America (or in the case of "Trinity College," Ireland) that would make their instruments attractive to the US market. After all, these are American-style instruments (largely), built to sell in America, so why name them after one of the 1468 (based on the Made-In-China website's directory) Chinese factories that build "adult" musical instruments?

Well, perhaps because it's a trifle more honest, "transparent" in the current lingo, to clearly label them with their manufacturers' names. I know, there's that little easily-removable "Made In China" sticker on the back of the headstock (oh, yours fell off at the dealer's? Surprising...), but really, why not say proudly "we make this in Asia, with lots of handwork, using both traditional methods and applicable technology, taking pride in our craftspersonship, and sell it world-wide -- a great value for the price, comparable to instruments made anywhere"?

I mean, it's the truth. We stack up Loar, Eastman, JBovier, Kentucky mandolins against "all comers," and they compete. Would they be less competitive, named Wuhan or Chengdu or whatever? Not in my book.

And I'm not questioning the right of any manufacturer, importer or distributor to label instruments with any name of which the legal rights have been acquired. Gibson can call anything they want "Epiphone" or "Flatiron," because they own those trademarks, and can put them on nose-flutes imported from Saturn, should that make marketing sense. I'm not smart enough to say whether that would make the nose-flutes more or less salable, but I trust G employs pros who can make those decisions.

Well, I'm sure the popcorn smileys are ready to go, so I'll stop ranting. Just think that Asian instruments should proudly display Asian pedigrees. I'd buy 'em anyway -- have done so, will probably do so in the future.

[brunello97]

My biggest disappointment with "The Loar" mandolin naming is the distinct lack of imagination displayed. Don Draper would have kicked those guys out of his office. A solid business plan, good workpersonship, good connections with dealers and mando-heads here in the States and a totally unimaginative name.

The Rizzuto glove and Williams fishing rods are red herrings. They were endorsers of the product, hence their name on them. "The Loar" is clearly meant to be associative of "The Gibson" and The Lloyd himself. Both of which are unnecessary and are bull to boot. And none of which matters a whit to the quality of the instrument. Everyone was talking about Eastman instruments here a while back, about their $/value ratio. I don't know who "Eastman" was or is, but the name is clear, memorable and identifiable. "The Loar" dudes have raised the bar on the $/value. To me the name is a cheesy gimmick, nothing more. The fact that it was maybe somebody's bad joke makes it even more galling.

I would have bought one long ago but for the stupid name. I still might buy one anyhow. I trust Bill K on mandolins, even if I disagree with his take on marketing.

Mick

[Ed Goist]

To possibly add even more confusion, I'll point out that "The Loar" also makes guitars, including one that was played on national TV last night...(No MC)...

[foldedpath]

Well, I'm sure the popcorn smileys are ready to go, so I'll stop ranting. Just think that Asian instruments should proudly display Asian pedigrees. I'd buy 'em anyway -- have done so, will probably do so in the future.

Speaking of which... whatever happened to Jade mandolins? Wasn't that the brand that was going to proudly associate the name with an Asian origin? I though that was a cool idea, but I haven't heard anything about that brand lately (or maybe I'm just not paying attention).

Also, "Asian instruments that proudly display their pedigrees" does apply to many Japanese brands, it's just that most of them are not fretted instruments. The most expensive musical instrument in our house is a Yamaha piano. Their wind instruments and drum kits are no slouches, either.

[billkilpatrick]

... I trust Bill K on mandolins, even if I disagree with his take on marketing. Mick

... sniff (II)

[Pipeous]

Wow it's just a name. I'd honestly never even heard of Loar until I came to this site. I bought a The Loar because it was suggested on this site as a good mandolin with a bit wider neck and big frets. I have made in China, Mexico and USA instruments. 3 Fenders made in different countries, 2 of which I adore, and all this drama over a name I find funny.

[Pete Summers]

good product marketing does not trump morals, humility or common sense - if it did, it wouldn't work. good, effective marketing usually involves something that works.....

Scantily clothed young women usually works, so I've noticed.

[Willie]

One thing "The Loar" doesn`t have is the name "Gibson" on it so how can people think that they are orignal Loars?

When I think or hear about Ted Williams I remember what he left with baseball fans and that was he gave the people in the stands "The finger", (flipped them the bird) when they booed him....Now that is a lasting memory....

Willie

[brunello97]

... sniff (II)

My barber tells me that my Italian is actually fairly good, il mio amico, but this 'sniffery' (prima o seconda) I might need a translation for… Inalato attraverso il naso my fair share of products through tubular dolares (and have gone to Grasse a few times with the missus) but am about as olfactorally challenged as any male.

My earlier post was to get to the heart of what I really value in my mando world friendships: musicality and communality. Which hardly seems rooted in a product's branding. That YOU confirm that the aforementioned company's product quality is bonafide means molto di più per me than a goofball product name on the headstock.

Mick