Mandolinist, or guitarist playing mandolin?

[Marty Henrickson]

This thread is a spinoff of the "Just a Flatpicker" thread, especially in regard to JeffD's observations on the differences in mandolin playing and guitar playing.

As a long-time guitarist, relatively new to mandolin, what are some of the mando-specific techniques (besides the ones Jeff mentioned - tremolo picking and double-stops) that I should be practicing? I am seeking to be more of a mandolinist, and less of a guitarist playing mandolin.

Thanks in advance for your input!

[JeffD]

Besides the tremolo and double stops, crucial and already mentioned, I have a few more suggestions.

This might not pertain to you, but I know several guitar players who know 98620193847 chord patterns, but their playing is just chord after chord after chord on a metronomic strum.

I have seen this on the mandolin too, where its nothing but four fingered chords and back beat strum. While that has its place (Steve Earl), it is a small slice of the mandolin pie.

Another thing, that works I think (opinion alert, my opinion, which is mine and which I have, is the opinion that is mine, my opinion) chord melody sounds wonderful on a guitar, even for long periods. But on mandolin a similar chord melody playing (full chord slowly strummed for every note of the melody) gets older quicker. A string of single bare notes on a mandolin has a wonderful tinkly percussive sound that should be be let free a lot.

Bass runs and walk downs on the mandolin irk me. (As much as tremolo on the guitar).

I really love parallel chord voicings. (Probably not the right term.) What I mean is a three fingered chord that is shifted across the neck to give you a IV chord with the same voicing as the I chord, and then shifted up the neck for the V chord, still with the same voicing. There is something about keeping the same pattern for the chord that ties the sounds together for me. Certainly a constant diet of this is boring, but it really can be a driving way to play at time.

Sliding into a double stop or chord from the fret below. Love it love it love it.

There are more (tons more) but my coffee machine just finished. Be back.

[terzinator]

Great answers, jeff...

Another thing I'd suggest is really working on picking up melodies in songs. I think that's definitely one of the keys to sounding like a mandolinist, vs. someone who just knows how to noodle in the same scale as the song... (The more you work on it, the easier it gets.) You don't have to play Bonneville-Salt-Flats fast, but if you can make music, you're on your way.

PS: Thought this was just going to be a "what do you consider yourself?" thread, of which there have been plenty... but this tack allows for lots of good stuff. (FWIW, I was a guitarist for 30+ years. I'm now a mandolinist. However, it's not because I'm really good, it's only because that's where ALL of my attention is going!)

[drbluegrass]

Marty, my situation is exactly the same as yours. I'm a bluegrasser and have played guitar for 50+ years. However, I changed to bluegrass from electric jazz and blues about 2 years ago. I'm a serious flatpicker that has come a long way in 2 years. I'm now feeling fairly confident in my flatpicking/speedpicking abilities on guitar and, like many BG players, want to be a competent multi-instrumentalist. So, I took up mandolin about a year ago (but just getting serious about it a month or so ago) and really like it. My goal is to be as good on mandolin as I am on guitar. I'm getting there. I've become serious enough about mandolin that I just purchased a Red Diamond "crusher" voiced Vintage F. Mandolin really grows on you. I like it almost as well as guitar. Who knows, I might end up liking it as well or better than guitar?
Once I begin to feel confident on mandolin I'm going to start on fiddle, since they're tuned the same. Then maybe banjo and resonator guitar. But for know I have my hands full with mandolin. I see mandolin and guitar as my 2 main (and favorite) instruments though with the others as a more casual interest. Anyway, like I said, the mandolin is enough for me to concentrate on for now. I would like to get really good on it. I'm getting there, but I have a way to go. My guitar playing skills have helped immensely but it's still a bit of a challenge due primarily to the different tuning. But, I'll keep putting in the time and continue to plug away at it. It really is fun though.


Tom

[Justus True Waldron]

It's an interesting phenomenon, this. I just gave this some thought and realised that I can usually tell when a guitar player is playing mandolin, but I'm not sure I can so easily tell when a mandolin player is playing guitar... I don't know why that might be, except maybe I just don't pay as much attention, since I'm not that much of a guitarist myself! I think JeffD and Chris made some really good points - particularly I'd say slides and playing the melody are two of the easiest things to do to make you sound more like a mandolin player. I'd also say listen to as much mandolin music as you can... I personally grew up loving bluegrass, but not really caring for the original Bill Monroe stuff. A few months ago, after deciding I wanted to sound more like a real bluegrass musician I went back and drowned myself in it, just for a few weeks. All of a sudden I noticed my breaks sounding more "right"... For me that seemed to help. I don't have a lot of experience in transitioning from guitar to mandolin, as I never really flat-picked before mandolin... However, I got stuck holding a guitar the other day at a jam and realised I could more or less play now. The jumps between strings throw me off slightly of course, but I figured out and was playing big sciota in a matter of minutes, and it actually sounded pretty good!

[Jeff Oxley]

Good suggestions, all. I would also add, as a precaution, to be sure you don't be a "smasher", i.e. someone who uses more downward pressure on the fingerboard when fretting strings, it's a common trait among those switching from guitar to mandolin (one I'm sure I must have been guilty of when I switched over from 30+ years of guitar). Takes quite a bit less pressure than on a guitar, IMHO.

[terzinator]

Good suggestions, all. I would also add, as a precaution, to be sure you don't be a "smasher", i.e. someone who uses more downward pressure on the fingerboard when fretting strings, it's a common trait among those switching from guitar to mandolin (one I'm sure I must have been guilty of when I switched over from 30+ years of guitar). Takes quite a bit less pressure than on a guitar, IMHO.

I know I'm guilty of this! My refret guy loves me.

[Marty Henrickson]

I really love parallel chord voicings. (Probably not the right term.) What I mean is a three fingered chord that is shifted across the neck to give you a IV chord with the same voicing as the I chord, and then shifted up the neck for the V chord, still with the same voicing. There is something about keeping the same pattern for the chord that ties the sounds together for me. Certainly a constant diet of this is boring, but it really can be a driving way to play at time.

I know what you mean, and I do this to some extent, but I definitely need to work on more shapes, and moving up the neck with them as well.

...My guitar playing skills have helped immensely but it's still a bit of a challenge due primarily to the different tuning. But, I'll keep putting in the time and continue to plug away at it. It really is fun though.

Tom, having a few months of guitar flatpicking lessons under my belt is what finally made me pull the trigger on buying a mandolin. I had just never played much single-note stuff before that, but now it sounds good on mandolin! I've been playing mandolin so much lately, that I actually have more trouble with getting the notes mixed up on guitar. The mandolin just seems ot be tuned "right".

Another thing I'd suggest is really working on picking up melodies in songs. I think that's definitely one of the keys to sounding like a mandolinist, vs. someone who just knows how to noodle in the same scale as the song... (The more you work on it, the easier it gets.) You don't have to play Bonneville-Salt-Flats fast, but if you can make music, you're on your way.

I'm hardly the first to make this observation, but it is SO much easier for me to "find" the melody of a song on the mandolin than on guitar. Happily, it seems to be getting easier on guitar as well.

....(FWIW, I was a guitarist for 30+ years. I'm now a mandolinist. However, it's not because I'm really good, it's only because that's where ALL of my attention is going!)

I know exactly what you mean - however, we do need to give our Martins some attention once in a while - I see you have some very nice ones in your stable!

[Markus]

I tend to think that the rhythmic use of mandolin is something that helped me leave `converted guitarist' behind somewhat.

There is the saying `a bow is a stick, the fiddle is a drum' that stresses the rhythmic end of fiddle playing. Similarly, mandolins [like the fiddle] have a strong percussive element to their sound that I failed to fully capitalize on when I switched.

Within Monroe or Compton's playing there is an old time fiddler playing a pulsing beat. It's the banjo-like syncopation of Jesse McReynolds that do his signature thing. Inside Grisman is Gene Krupa, using notes instead of a drumset.

Often people will describe a band as parts of a drumset [bass = bass drum, mandolin as snare] ... the longer I play, the more I see myself more in the role of Santana's conga player or a horn section - using the mandolin's high register and percussive `hit' to play `off rhythms', to emphasize the song but not always stick to the script.

Listen to the rhythms going on in a tune like Raw Hide, or the gallop of Molly and Tenbrooks. As a guitarist, that's someone else's part - you're holding the song together. As the mandolin, sometimes that's your part. Key word, sometimes ... you don't tremolo every song either.

I have found it useful for every instrument I play to take a little time and focus solely on the rhythmic content. Played without a pulse to the music, both OT and ITM sound remarkably dead. Then again, if all you play is rhythm you might as well take up the jug or bodhran.

[Caleb]

Another thing, that works I think (opinion alert, my opinion, which is mine and which I have, is the opinion that is mine, my opinion) chord melody sounds wonderful on a guitar, even for long periods. But on mandolin a similar chord melody playing (full chord slowly strummed for every note of the melody) gets older quicker. A string of single bare notes on a mandolin has a wonderful tinkly percussive sound that should be be let free a lot.

Bass runs and walk downs on the mandolin irk me.

Agreed. Some things just don't sound good on mandolin like they do on guitar. Not everything translates well. The bass walk down in particular. Not enough oomph behind it for one thing.

[JeffD]

A friend of mine does tremolo on his guitar, and I call him on it, refering to his "mandolin envy".

[JeffD]

I would note that while bluegrass playing styles kind of dominate technique discussions, it is not nearly the only way to play the thing. Even you folks who only want to play bluegrass, it would pay off to explore some of the other mandolinny things that are done. Its all good. And all of it helps all of it.

A good example would be a tremolo melody - a slow tune in which almost every melody note is single note tremolo. A waltz or a slow air done this way can really (no really really) be satisfying. Putting a double stop tremolo at the end of each phrase or at the end of the piece and you will have folks in tears.

[250sc]

Django used tremolo and it never sounded like a mandolin.

JeffD hit the nail on the head when he mentioned that genre' plays a big part of what is acceptable on mandolin and guitar. Both instruments are only limited by the person sitting behind them.

[Ted Eschliman]

Biggest peeve of mine for the mandolin guitarist convert is the "clacky, clacky" accompaniment strum. The brighter, more penetrating articulation of the mandolin must either be simplified to a back beat or lock perfectly with the guitar in the band. Once the rhythms get complex, there's no tolerance for sloppiness, and if either player isn't locked in, the blame will always go to the mandolin, deserved or not. (The reason is the higher the pitch, the more distinct the perception of direction.)

Best solution to this is to either completely simplify the pattern to an offbeat (no subdivision), or flatpick a more subdued crosspicking or arpeggiated pattern. You can be a cowbell or you can be a maraca.

Crosspicking, chop, tremolo, single note melody picking, these are the strengths of the mandolin, and they should be the first out of the toolbag.

[JeffD]

Crosspicking, chop, tremolo, single note melody picking, these are the strengths of the mandolin, and they should be the first out of the toolbag.

How could I have forgotten crosspicking. Yes absolutely.

[Markus]

Biggest peeve of mine for the mandolin guitarist convert is the "clacky, clacky" accompaniment strum. ... Once the rhythms get complex, there's no tolerance for sloppiness, and if either player isn't locked in, the blame will always go to the mandolin, deserved or not. (The reason is the higher the pitch, the more distinct the perception of direction.)

This is a great point, well made.

While I find the mandolin has great rhythmic potential - if it is just duplicating other parts, you need be so precise at it to make a metronome look like a slacker.

I take a lot of inspiration for what to play from playing djembe with a drum troop for a short bit decades ago - you have the instrument that is heard `on top' of everything else with a sharp `hit'. The power of double strings plus the percussive nature expose every rhythmic flaw.

You have the ability to play offbeat or swing the beat and have it really jump out ... and the ability to turn it into mud instantly by being barely off. People hear your rhythm on mandolin, whether you want them to or not.

Part of being a mandolin player is avoiding the perils of `clacky clacky'. The slop I could get away with on guitar is distinctly heard played on the mandolin - quite often, it is not my role to `hold down the beat' as any micro-deviance is heard and throws the beat off. After decades of guitar, it's an assumption that's my role - which isn't true for mandolin IMO, for every song.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

The "clacky clacky" can quickly interfere with the music even if you are in perfect time, unless you very carefully control the volume and timbre of each "clack" and each "-y". It's not unlike playing drums; if you will fill the backbeat snare pulse with additional snare work, you don't usually want the in-between stuff to jump out like the back beat. RH control is critical here. But when done well, it can add a lot.

Cheers
MRT

[llg]

converting from guitar to mandolin is definitely a journey. I second prior advice to listen to and attempt to play as many styles of music as you can. You will learn to be a better musician that way (not just mandolin player either )
Secondly, if you play bluegrass I would suggest developing a good clean chop for rhythm playing--don't strum like the guitar! I never noticed it before until my banjo playing lifelong bluegrass buddy pointed out how much better the band sounds with the mandolin playing a simple downstroke chop. Work on getting it tight. It really helps drive the band. Of course there are exceptions but on bluegrass drive this is key.
Also learn to play on the g and d strings up the neck as much as possible. they just sound better to my than the e and a.

[Paul Merlo]

There's some great insight here. I was just jamming w/ my friend's rock band, and started to cross paths w/ the guitar a little too much. Granted, it was during the verses and we were hitting something like a 2-step shuffle together, but I noticed that clacky thing from me and thought it was just ugly. I think less is definitely more in that situation.

I thing I'm gonna try a few different ideas next time like only hitting the chop on the downbeat, or double-stops so I can stay out of his way if he's gonna take that part.

[ralph johansson]

Agreed. Some things just don't sound good on mandolin like they do on guitar. Not everything translates well. The bass walk down in particular. Not enough oomph behind it for one thing.

Of course it doesn't since there is no bass on a mandolin. The first consideration then might be the respective ranges of the instruments - the lowest note on the mandolin is the open note on the 3rd string. Hence there is no such thing as walking bass or bass runs, etc. on the mando.

[ralph johansson]

converting from guitar to mandolin is definitely a journey. I second prior advice to listen to and attempt to play as many styles of music as you can. You will learn to be a better musician that way (not just mandolin player either )
Secondly, if you play bluegrass I would suggest developing a good clean chop for rhythm playing--don't strum like the guitar! I never noticed it before until my banjo playing lifelong bluegrass buddy pointed out how much better the band sounds with the mandolin playing a simple downstroke chop. Work on getting it tight. It really helps drive the band. Of course there are exceptions but on bluegrass drive this is key.
Also learn to play on the g and d strings up the neck as much as possible. they just sound better to my than the e and a.

There's a lot more than - or should be -to rhythm playing than the afterbeat chop. Even in Bluegrass. STOP THE CHOP!

[ralph johansson]

How could I have forgotten crosspicking. Yes absolutely.

I think crosspicking is a more versatile effect on the guitar esp. up the neck. Seems to me that crosspicking on the mandolin depends a lot on access to open strings for certain mildy dissonant and dense voicings.

[ralph johansson]

A friend of mine does tremolo on his guitar, and I call him on it, refering to his "mandolin envy".

Tremolo on guitar is a cheap effect! CHEAP!! CHEAP!!! The longer sustain of the guitar offers a whole lot other possibilities.

It's strange to the see slides and double stops mentioned as effects typical of the mandolin - I use them a lot on the guitar. HO's and PO's are important on both instruments but work differently. PO's have a lot more snap on the mando, and HO's are more difficult. E.g., if you play a triplet on one course a down-HO-HO doesn't work that well, better to use a down-HO-up.

One final point: many guitar owners are used to using a capo to reduce supposedly difficult keys to only a few of them, say C and G. On mando there really are no difficult keys, and some keys that might intimidate the guitar owner, such as F, Bb, and Eb, sit very nicely on the mando and offer a ton of possibilities.

[AlanN]

I guess you haven't heard T on Mar West, within that multi-bar passage where he trembles like nobody's business. He was asked about that one time, he said he actually slid up 2 frets during that.

What a solo, Sam too.

[frets]

I think the best way to go from being a guitar player to being a mandolin player (and this worked for me) is to listen to alot
of mandolin players. What goes in your ears will eventually find its way out your fingers with time and practice.