A Violin/Fiddle Question

[P.D. Kirby]

Ok I realize this is a Mandolin Forum but I also know there is a plethora of knowledge here dealing with just about anything with strings. Having said that, in my never ending quest to accumulate as many musical instruments as possible before I die I am looking at doing some trading with a neighbor who suffers from the same affliction. At any rate he has a Violin/Fiddle that he wants to trade to me and here is all I know about it.

The Label inside reads : Andreas Morelli, Reproduzzione, Antonius Stradivarius 1722, #139. It is in mint condition has a nice case and three bows which are Glasser NY brand. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure what a Violin of this type, brand, make would be worth. I can't play Violin but I would like to have another one anyway. Please excuse the lousy cell phone pictures and thanks in advance for any help you can offer.
Phillip

[Willie]

While we are on the subject of fiddles, is there a "sweet spot" where the bow is placed when playing the fiddle like it is when picking a mandolin....I am like Mr. Kirby, I am interested in starting to learn the fiddle....

Don`t mean to jump on his thread so hopefully someone can answer both questions at the same time....

Willie

[multidon]

P.D.- I can tell you some things about it, certainly not everything without being able to examine it in-hand. First, the name Andreas Morelli. It is one of those ubiquitous names branded onto German made "trade" violins. They used Italian-sounding names, not necessarily in an attempt to defraud but just as a marketing tool, because in most peoples minds Italian=quality when it comes to violins. Ditto the Stradivarius reproduction stuff. Usually these were German designs without any attempt to literally copy Strads. Again, the label is just a marketing tool. The early Morellis were actually made in the Karl Herrman workshop from the 20's until probably the 60's. They made them in great numbers so they are not rare. Violins are being made with that brand name now but I don't know where. Modern ones may not be related to the old workshop. One thing you learn about violins is that brands and labels mean very little. Now that being said your neighbor has an attractive looking example. Unusually light colored varnish, well done antiquing, and a one piece back, usually reserved for higher grade instruments. Difficult to say how old this example is. The chinrest, if original, is a common model found on student grade instruments from the 60's to the modern day. They make them by the millions. If it's German, from the Herrmann workshop, they had a reputation for carving the plates in a hurry to get them out the door leaving them rough and too thick. An internal examination with a dental mirror would reveal this. Some people say they like to get these as a re-graduation project. Thinning and refining the plate thicknesses improves them. On the other hand it could be an upper line well graduated model. Only the inspection would show that. I would recommend taking it to a violin shop luthier for an evaluation before buying or trading. I know you have several in the Charolettesvile area that you could choose from. Value? Really hard to say. But not valuable. I don't think even the very best examples get too much over a thousand. It would seem a safe bet for 500 or so. The Glasser bows are not that special, but it looks like a nice case. Hope this helps you out.

[Bill Snyder]

This means absolutely nothing but online I found a new Andreas Morelli violin package on sale for $1,950.00. It comes with a trade-in guarantee.

[stratman62]

Willie, the sweet spot on mine is right at the end of the fingerboard and keeping the bow at a 90 degree angle with the strings. Go for it!!

[Mandobart]

I can't add any more model info as Multidon sounds pretty thorough. Looking at the pictures, however, shows some things worth mentioning. I've never seen one of those fluted tailpieces before; I wonder if it was done as an effort to save weight (totally negated now with all the fine tuners) or purely cosmetic. The endpin gut looks loose and the endpin seems to be sticking out more than it should. I never cared for those plastic chinrests but that is easily changed. How does it sound? Another good source for violin info is www.fiddlehangout.com or www.fiddleforum.com

[Jim Garber]

Some comments on another bulletin board.

Skinner Auction results.

[pefjr]

Never trust a label on a Violin. Assume all are fakes. The Italians were the best violin cons in the business, now the Chinese are. I have seen some reproduction Violins out of China that are so good the Italians can't tell the difference. The violin may be a good one but it looks like the flame maple is "too good". I suspect Chinese just from an internet picture. Glasser bows and a new case do not usually come with a valuable violin. Take it to the nearest University with a Music Dept. and the instructors and students will give you a free appraisal.

[4Strings]

Can't tell for sure, but is that a nail in the back button? The ebony crown on the button may have been added at the same time as the nail(?) to hide the repair (possibly, the neck root had come out of the mortise). If the ebony crown was original to the violin, then that, along with the one-piece back and well-flamed maple, are indicators of a "better" factory violin. The varnish on top looks strange to me...might be the picture, but it might have been revarnished, which may have been done because of some crack repairs. And, yes, that end button is hanging out rather strangely.

As others have said, best plan is to take it to a fiddle shop and have them look at it for condition and rough value.

[Jim Garber]

Take it to the nearest University with a Music Dept. and the instructors and students will give you a free appraisal.

I am not so sure about that recommendation. I suppose it couldn't cost much (except your time), but my experience is that few musicians -- even top ones -- are experts on appraising instruments. A good violin shop would be better bet. A reputable shop would want future business and would give an honest verbal appraisal for the violin.

[multidon]

+1 for going to a violin shop/luthier for an evaluation rather than the college music department. As others have said, teachers and students are not generally the best for appraisal, although it would be free. Also, +1 on the end pin and tailpiece gut not being right. I would not try to tune it up to pitch before that is corrected. I was so busy looking at the rest of it I missed that. Good catch.

[Jim Garber]

Can't tell for sure, but is that a nail in the back button? The ebony crown on the button may have been added at the same time as the nail(?) to hide the repair (possibly, the neck root had come out of the mortise).

Nowadays we prob would frown on using nails in neck joints and if this is a contemporary repair done so, then it may be a problem. OTOH violin makers are the original makers of distressed models some copying old instruments down to the molecular level.

For instance, this is a description of Stradivari's neck joining technique:

When Stradivari was making his violins he attached the neck to the body with three iron nails and glue. Some makers preferred to use one nail but the basic idea was common across Europe. The nails went through the top block into the neck to hold the neck in place while the glue dried and form a strong joint. While many of the top blocks in older violins have been replaced during repairs and modernization, some have survived. The nails often have have removed, the necks modernized and mortised into the block in the modern way.

So, it is possible that the shop design was to imitate how a real Stradivari violin was made.

[P.D. Kirby]

See I was right, thanks guys. I have the Violin in my possession and the owner has recommended pretty much the same thing as most of you, take it to a Professional for an appraisal. I found in the case pocket after I posted a receipt (don't think he knew it was in there) from a Violin Shop in Northern Virginia where he purchased the Violin and a new Bow for a price of $1550 in 2001 but as we all know that is no indicator as to the value in todays depressed market. As for the sound, surely you jest. I was able to tune it and being completely devoid of any skills playing a Violin the sound was akin to a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when I attempted to play it. I will say this it is a beautiful Violin and of much better quality than the other two I have both of which are from Romania. I think this one might be a real Violin... I will ask about the nails when I take it to the shop tomorrow but they do look like OEM nails... Oh and you were right 4strings the end pin had worked it's way out a little due to the strings being slack I guess but it was pretty easy to press back in with a little thumb pressure. When I got done fiddling around with it (pun intended) I loosened the strings just in case but thanks for the heads up.

[Jim Garber]

Find someone who can play fiddle and have them play it and evaluate it for you, if you are concerned about.

[P.D. Kirby]

Thanks Jim that is my plan. We have a very reputable dealer in Charlottesville and tomorrow I will take it to them for a good going over and appraisal. BTW thanks again to all that have offered their opinions and suggestions. I would be lost without this place.

[4Strings]

Nowadays we prob would frown on using nails in neck joints and if this is a contemporary repair done so, then it may be a problem. OTOH violin makers are the original makers of distressed models some copying old instruments down to the molecular level.

For instance, this is a description of Stradivari's neck joining technique:


So, it is possible that the shop design was to imitate how a real Stradivari violin was made.

Stradivari's nails were nailed from the inside of the neck block into the neck root before the top was put on. I have never seen or heard of a maker nailing through the button during the original construction...(nailed buttons are normally a sign of a hack repair job).

[P.D. Kirby]

In spite of my ignorance in Violins I went ahead with the deal (I traded a Takamine Guitar that I got for $650 even trade) to my surprise the shop I took it too for evaluation which will remain nameless per their request had a customer interested in purchasing this model Violin so they offered to take it off my hands for $1100.00 cash so I no longer have said Violin. I am going to put the proceeds of the sale towards the purchase of another Banjo (Gibson RB-3 Wreath) and couldn't be happier with how it all worked out. Thanks to all of you that helped me with the information and observations. I never got the chance to ask about the nails but I have to assume they were supposed to be there because they didn't say a word other than to ask if I was willing to sell it.

[Bernie Daniel]

So perhaps the violin was really worth $1600 or so as that is probably about what they will sell it to the customer for? Assuming the typical 40% or so mark up wholesale to retail?