FFcP modes question

[Rosemary Philips]

First, let me say I have started working on the FFcP patterns and I'm seeing a big difference already. I'm really trying to think about the notes and there relationships, in addition to simply trying to get my fingers to go to the correct places. So, the patterns start off with Home, then Thirds, then Home, then it's the next section I'm confused by. It starts with Imaj7, then goes to vi7, II7, then V7. What are these?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[journeybear]

People must still be sleeping in, having miscalculated the change to DST. These are chords representing steps in what is known as the circle of fifths - chords arranged in such a manner that each is a fifth away from the next. ("Fifth" in this context means the fifth tone of a scale, as in "do re mi fa so," equivalent to seven frets.) Each chord sort of naturally leads (to the ear) to the next, much as, say, a D7 chord resolves to a G. The circle of fifths sort of extends this relationship backwards step by step (in this case, the A7 leads to D7, and the E7 leads to A7, which leads to ...) so that then, when played forward, the resultant chords lead to the ultimate resolution - which in the example you cited, would be the I. Chord progressions using this formulation are more common than you may think, including such well-known tunes as "Salty Dog," "Don't Let Your Deal Go Down," and "Sweet Georgia Brown." For "Salty Dog," in G, you play E7 A7 D7 G - and these corresponding tones in the G scale are VI7 II7 V7 I. Another factor in why this progression "works" is that there are four of them; the four-bar formulation is very common in Western music, so it meets expectations and thus sounds familiar.

Hope this helps!

[Rosemary Philips]

Thanks Journeybear! That progression part makes sense. I am puzzled about the first chord being a maj7. How does that factor in? Or am I misunderstanding?

[journeybear]

My reasoning so far has been kind of general, as I have not seen the FFcP material. I just recognized that pattern right off. I don't want to speculate further, as there may be some specific intent I am not gleaning without the context. My example(s) tend toward resolving on the I, not the Ima7. Typically, the Ima7 and IVma7 contain notes that are in that key, without having to be adjusted by a sharp or flat, while a I7 - common enough in blues, jazz, and rock - requires that seventh to be flatted. But again, this may well be irrelevant to the question you raise; I just don't know the context. I'm sure someone familiar with FFcP will clear it up for you soon enough.

[swampstomper]

I am a big FFcP fan, as I understand it from studying Ted's columns over the years:

The reason for the maj7 is, that is the four-note chord, skipping every other note: 1 - 3 - 5 (this is the usual major chord) - 7.
eg. C E G B (Cmaj7)

Then the vi7 is 1 - 3 - 5 - 6, but that 6th is the root of the relative minor, if we start from there, in that tone centre it is 1 - b3 - 5 b7
e.g. C E G A (C6)--> A C E G (Am7)

Then the ii7 is systematically one step above the Imaj7: 2 4 6 8=1, e.g. D F A C, you wil recognize this as Dm. A cool fact is you can continue the Imaj7 scale with every other note and get this same ii7 above the Imaj7 scale as the 9 - 11 - 13, e.g. C E G B D F A and then it would end back at C (two octaves).

Finally the V7 resolves to the I, in FFcP it starts again on the 2 of the scale: 2 4 5 7, but if we consider these from the V as tonal centre we get 1 3 5 b7
e.g., D F G B; putting it with the V note in the root: G B D F

[Rosemary Philips]

Wow--that's a lot of information to digest! I feel like I need FFcP for Dummies course...

I'm going to spend some time with this info and hopefully it will start to make more sense. Thanks so much!

[jab]

I feel like I need FFcP for Dummies course...

I'll take one too! I've been playing around with FFcP the past week. The first exercise says to play it for about a month before moving on. I thought it would take a week. I've changed my mind, it will take a month. I'm just trying to get my fingers to move fluently about the progression, the relationship of everything is still very far from my brain. And this thread scares the tar out of me. FFcP for Dummies please!

[journeybear]

Don't let this stuff perplex you so. Granted, the more you play, and the more you learn, the more you see there IS to learn, but you will also be learning and understanding all the time along the way. I did a lot of playing before I knew anything about any of this, and while I picked up this and that along the way, it wasn't until I started to learn about swing music and Tin Pan Alley songs that I realized how much was going on beyond what I thought I knew. I wish I had had something like FFcP or other methods when I was starting out. I stumbled through on my own and may have turned out all right anyway but I sure could have used a bit of help earlier on. Take this bit by bit, and observe how the bits interrelate and also point toward other aspects, and believe me, little light bulbs will keep going on in your heads and they will light your way.

[Rosemary Philips]

I've played guitar for probably 30 years without ever learning any theory at all--of course, that shows in my playing. Something about the mandolin really makes me want to understand it. Theory doesn't come naturally to me but, bit by bit, little low wattage light bulbs are slowly becoming illuminated. Thanks for the help and encouragement.

[swampstomper]

Rosemary, it's a lot easier to understand the theory on the mando than the guitar, IMHO. The 5ths tuning across all the strings, and so the layout of the scales and chords under the fingers, is consistent; the intervals are much easier to visualize with 7 frets between strings. Once you get into the right hand positions (another plug for FFcP) the muscle memory matches the theory.

[Ted Eschliman]

Everybody's already done a pretty good job of explaining this. My intentions with the FFcP strategy have always been to sneak a little medicine in the spoonful of sugar. Not everyone wants to consciously study music theory so we kind of sneak it in. The harmonic analysis is there for all the theory eggheads to start labeling intellectually what their fingers are doing.

You can go through the whole exercises as virtual finger calisthenics. Just play them. They're good for the fingers, setting you up to play the higher frets using (and thinking) relationships, not fret numbers. But that's later, after months of getting them automatic and intuitive.

When and if you're ready, look at the labels. The Imaj7 vi7, ii7, V7 is a set of 7th chords based on the (diatonic) scale. As mentioned, it's very common in pop music (doo wop chords) and jazz. Think the song, "Heart and Soul." (FFcP was designed to introduce jazz to the folk player, by the way, but don't let that scare you off!)

In defense of the theory, when you have a label, you can use it to repeat in other keys, up, down, and across the fretboard. For you beginners, that's a lot later. For now consider it some really good stretching.

[journeybear]

Oh! I see I misread the notation - didn't notice the lower case letters and get they meant minor chords. Sorry.

Though I think most of what I said was true, just wasn't quite on point. Oh well ...

[Rosemary Philips]

FFcP for Dummies please!

Glad I'm not alone!

[Rosemary Philips]

Thanks Ted! Although I just started doing the FFcP exercises, I find my brain naturally wandering toward the theory, so I'm just trying to move in that direction a little at a time. I can actually really notice a difference after only a week or so, which is really satisfying. Thanks again.

[Doug Hoople]

You can go through the whole exercises as virtual finger calisthenics. Just play them. They're good for the fingers, setting you up to play the higher frets using (and thinking) relationships, not fret numbers. But that's later, after months of getting them automatic and intuitive.

+1 for doing first and theory later!

Much better to be able to play and not be able to explain than to explain and not be able to play.

If you start with too much theory, then there's always a thinking step between a musical thought and playing, and frankly there just isn't enough time for that.

Also, you can try all you like to understand the theory, but if that understanding doesn't come, then it all seems like impenetreble and useless pointy-headed nonsense.

Take it at a lightbulb pace. If the lightbulb hasn't gone on, then go back and play some more. Keep your attention tuned to theory explanations, but don't sweat it. When the lightbulb does finally on, and it will if you stay patient and give it a chance, then you'll understand, and it won't be useless pointy-headed nonsense anymore.

When enough lightbulbs finally go on, theory will be downright intoxicating.

Plus, you'll be able to do things musically that you can't if you don't have the theory. Add that to the playing you've been developing all along, and you'll be that much closer to being the total package.

Enjoy the journey!

[Beanzy]

In defense of the theory, when you have a label, you can use it to repeat in other keys, up, down, and across the fretboard. For you beginners, that's a lot later. For now consider it some really good stretching.

I always think it's like gardening;
got to dig the garden in the winter to plant the seeds, watch them grow and pick the fruit later.

[JonZ]

It get's a lot easier after you learn one position, as they all sound the same.

["Umm, fish?"]

Rosemary, the I, vi, ii, V, then back to I progression comes up in all kinds of songs, though newer jazz often strays far afield and it can sound kind of "dated." Which is fine by me, as I kind of prefer my jazz old anyway.

Ted is just getting you used to playing over one of the most-seen chord progressions.