Better for Skill Development: GDAE Only or GDAE + CGDA?

[Ed Goist]

Sorry about the cryptic thread title, let me explain...

Up until now all of my mandolin family instruments have been tuned GDAE.

I just picked-up an Eastwood Warren Ellis electric tenor guitar which came tuned CGDA. I was about to change the strings over to GDAE since that's what I'm used to, but I thought I would ask for opinions here first:

With respect to one's development as a player, is it generally more beneficial for one to have all of one's instruments tuned GDAE, or would it be more beneficial to have one instrument tuned differently (to CGDA)?

I've been playing for two years, and I'm currently placing a major focus on learning the fretboard better and on ear training. It seems to me that a different tuning on one of my instruments might hinder my fretboard training. On the other hand, it might benefit my ear training.

So, I'm hoping for some sage feedback on this here.

[Jim Bevan]

Depends on whether you want to be a better mandolinist or a better musician.

I wouldn't think of it as a different tuning -- I'd try to think of it as a different set of strings.
In other words, it's not that your highest string is now tuned to an A; it's that your normal highest string is missing, the other three strings are still there but moved over one nut (and bridge) slot, and you've added the logical (a 5th lower) string on the bottom.

[John McGann]

Intervallically, they are the same, but mandolinistically, the mandola is like a transposing instrument. In other words, if you use theory as a guidepost for your playing, and are used to thinking things like "Am", your shapes are totally in a different place. It's easy in one way, and difficult in another way. Certainly, playing Irish and other kinds of fiddle tunes that are based on GDAE no longer lie in the same easy open positions in CGDA, but that doesn't stop killer cellists like Tristan Clarridge, Natalie Haas or Rushad Eggleston from getting down with it.

I don't know about skill development as such, but personally, I'm more comfortable in GDAE and prefer to stay there. I also have one of those Eastwoods, and converted it to GDAE. It's really a cool instrument, and I prefer to 'think mandolin' when tuned in 5ths (though I love my 10 string Smart fandola too!). Since I play guitar as well, I just like the idea of E on top, it suits my musical reflexes and intuition...

[Mandobart]

For me, I like the different tunings. I can't imagine playing my mandocello tuned up to GDAE. I really like the sound CGDA. Same with viola. I don't know if it detracts from or enhances musicianship. I do think that some revelations I've had on the larger scale 'cello wouldn't have occurred to me on the mandolin (open chord voicings and barre chords, for example). This is more a function of the scale size and not from being tuned a 5th lower. In a way I guess it helps as I often bring a CGDA and GDAE tuned instrument to a jam, and follow the guitarist's chords. I have to remember that same shape yields different chords from one to the other so it keeps me thinking and listening. Then I break out the 10 stringer (CGDAE) and anything is possible.

[MandoSquirrel]

I used to have a 16 inch scale mandola, & found the CGDA tuning a bit confusing when it came to chords & such. This after 30 years or so with mandolin. I think the longer scale of the tenor might alleviate that confusion. but I'm not sure.

[August Watters]

I second Jim's idea -- if you envision your top three strings (A-D-G) strings as the bottom three strings of a mandolin, you have an instrument that's three-fourths the same tuning! So your shapes are in the same position, just moved over one string. It takes a bit of practice, but I think thinking this way can benefit both your fingerboard recognition and ear. I play tenor banjo and alto mandola in the C-G-D-A tuning, and bass E-A-D-G, so I'm used to switching. When I make mistakes, it's usually due to switching mandolin and guitar tuning, not mandolin and mandola tuning!

One suggestion, if you're playing music that requires reading: take the instrument out of the mix, and find a good sight-singing method -- if you can read intervallically, you can apply that skill to any instrument.

[Jim Bevan]

And I second August's last comment (we seem to have a mutual-admiration society going!)

The better musician is one who, when reading, doesn't just play what he sees; he hears what he sees, and plays what he hears.

Of course, that doesn't help make the new tuning easier -- now you'll have to figure out where what you hear goes.

[Jim Bevan]

But maybe we're getting off the track a little...

Ed, just try this: take your simple G chord, and picture just playing the three lowest-sounding strings. Now play that same shape on the three highest-sounding strings of the CGDA instrument.

You might notice that it looks like the top notes of a D chord; trying playing a full D chord shape, and yep, you got yourself a full D chord.

[Jim Bevan]

Duh, I meant to say

You might notice that it looks like the top notes of a D chord; trying playing a full D chord shape, and yep, you got yourself a full G chord.

[Chip Booth]

Another idea that worked for me when I first started to play mandola tuning is to transpose mandolin music. If a song is in the key of G think of it as being in the key of D. Transpose all the chords in the songs into D and play the shapes of the key of D from the mandolin on the mandola. That gives you the sound of the key of G. If you are not used to transposing on the fly that can help give you a lot of practice.

Like John McG I play a Smart 10 string, so eventually I stopped thinking in this transposed way and just added the C string onto the mandolin tuning I am familiar with. With some time the familiar four string shapes of the mandolin have moved down onto the mandola range without the need to transpose, and I don't get confused quite as often as I used to...

[Alex Orr]

Depends what you want to play to some degree. Do you plan on showing up to a lot of bluegrass jams with a mandola or an electric mandolin?

[rico mando]

I have my eastwood tenor tuned GDAE and the goldtone acoustic tenor CGDA . I do not think the skill development is necessarily affected but you are definitely looking at losing practice time to bring your familiarity with the cgda tuning up to "second nature" where your not thinking about what note is where . that is assuming you already have that with the GDAE tuning as second nature .

[Beanzy]

I went for the tenor guitar as it is tuned like my cello but up an octave.
I'm playing loads of melody stuff from the cello scores which gives me a whole new take on the tunes.
Film pieces like the music from Harry Potter, Phanthom of The Opera and Pirates Of The Caribbean along with other tunes like Basin Street Blues, Tennessee Waltz & some Haydn & Mozart Minuets. Having a bucket load of scores & books of solos to hand helps.
It's not getting as much time as my mandolin playing, but I feel the practice is feeding positively into both without any confusion yet.
I think what helps me is reading the mandolin scores in treble clef and the Tenor guitar scores straight from the bass clef.
I suppose there's a visual disconnection there that makes it less likely I'll confuse things.

I've only got a few songs down as chords so far but when I learn the tunes as melodies then the chord progressions seem to come easier after that. Still finding the stretches for full chords a bit 'new' though. I tend to shift position more rather than stretch on the cello as I'm not aiming for chords.

The way I see it if you go for the CGDA tuning now you'll be more ready when the MAS bites and you want to buy yourself a mandocello or mandola.

[Toycona]

I play 80% mando ans 20% dola. My feeling is that switching instruments is like a dialect shift. My ear definitely benefits, as do my fingers. Stretching on the dola helps with the reach on the mando.

Play on!

[SincereCorgi]

I have my eastwood tenor tuned GDAE and the goldtone acoustic tenor CGDA . I do not think the skill development is necessarily affected but you are definitely looking at losing practice time to bring your familiarity with the cgda tuning up to "second nature" where your not thinking about what note is where . that is assuming you already have that with the GDAE tuning as second nature .

This is what I was thinking. It's a substantial investment of time to get natural on a CGDA instrument, one that you'll probably only use %5 of the time unless you're getting into jazz banjo or something. I spent a lot of time on CGDA tenor guitar but don't get much use out of it (I can sight-read alto clef now, though!), an unhappy but realistic assessment. It all depends on your music goals and how much time you have to realistically allot to practicing for them.

[rico mando]

Of course you can pretend that your CGDA instrument is tuned GDAE . it is when you play with other people , then you will have to play in A if the song is D or use a capo .

["Umm, fish?"]

Best thing I ever did was move to a six string CGDAEB instrument. It just gives a whole new perspective, IMO. Being able to move chord inversions both up by fifths and down by fourths really expanded my understanding of the circle of fifths and how it relates to common chord progressions.

But it's all tied up with the rest of my development and I can hardly say what I would be like without the experience, so who knows?

[Jared Heddinger]

Best thing I ever did was move to a six string CGDAEB instrument. It just gives a whole new perspective, IMO.

I second this notion. I may still be a beginner, but having a octave/cello tuned CGDAE has helped my mandolin playing so much. Not only does it keep my theory skills sharp, it lets me hear the mandolin in a totally different way. Finding 3 finger chords that can be moved literally anywhere on the neck is a beautiful thing.

[Ed Goist]

Best thing I ever did was move to a six string CGDAEB instrument. It just gives a whole new perspective, IMO. Being able to move chord inversions both up by fifths and down by fourths really expanded my understanding of the circle of fifths and how it relates to common chord progressions.

But it's all tied up with the rest of my development and I can hardly say what I would be like without the experience, so who knows?

Andy;
Thanks so much for posting this here!
As committed as I'm becoming to instruments tuned in 5th, I think I need to try this with my Telecaster.
Do you happen to know what string gauges will work well when tuned CGDAEB on an instrument with a scale of 25.5" (64.8cm)?...The B string would need to be very low gauge, no?
Thanks.

[Jim Yates]

I prefer a tenor banjo tuned DAEB, up a full tone from standard. This works well for fiddle tunes, since few fiddle tunes use the low G string of the standard mandolin or fiddle, I play the bottom 3 strings as though they were the top three. It also saves me from some long stretches on the E string. Any notes higher than the seventh fret of the E string can be found on the B string. If I need to go below the D string, I can either transpose up an octave, modify the tune, or switch to mandolin.

[Tom Wright]

...Do you happen to know what string gauges will work well when tuned CGDAEB on an instrument with a scale of 25.5" (64.8cm)?...The B string would need to be very low gauge, no?
Thanks.

.006 or .007 for B4. This thread in the NST guitar social group covers it somewhat:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/gr...283&do=discuss

["Umm, fish?"]

Andy;
Thanks so much for posting this here!
As committed as I'm becoming to instruments tuned in 5th, I think I need to try this with my Telecaster.
Do you happen to know what string gauges will work well when tuned CGDAEB on an instrument with a scale of 25.5" (64.8cm)?...The B string would need to be very low gauge, no?
Thanks.

Sorry, just getting back. I have tuned my wife's nylon acoustic 25.5" to CGDAEE, but I have no clue what the gauges are. That's a really long reach for my stubby fingers so I don't like it much. I have a couple short scale guitars (23.5") that are tuned CGDAEB. Here are the gauges I am using for that:

C: 0.68
G: 0.46
D: 0.34
A: 0.021 (but this string sounds weak to my ear among the others and I may futz with the gauge next time I change)
E: 0.010
B: 0.008

I think for 25.5" you would need to go to a special alloy for your B string. I suggest reading up on it here: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/gr...935&do=discuss

I've just started trying to build an archtop aimed at this tuning because I'm tired of lugging the amp everywhere I want to play. I'm fanning the frets so I can go from 25" at the C to 22" at the B. We'll see how it goes.

[Lee]

I'm terrible. I learned reading music so that it tells me which finger to use and where to place it. For me, printed music is like a code. It can show me to use my middle finger at the third fret on the second pair of strings from the top. Then that's what I do. If I'm holding a mandolin, that's a C note. Reading the same music while holding a mandola tells me to place my finger the same place. So out comes an F. Unfortunately, I never learned to read music and play the correct pitch. It just tells me where my fingers should go.