R.I.P. Davey Jones

[mandolirius]

It's hard to gauge the public's perception of a person's importance or stature in these situations. Remember several weeks back when Etta James died, with all the sadness was expressed by so many? Johnny Otis died three days before her, and received nowhere near as much attention, as far as I saw, and he was a much more important and influential member of the musical community. Indeed, he is credited with discovering her. But if someone has touched a chord within a great many people, even if it's only with one song or with some other aspect of what one can do with music, that person's passing is noted with what some may see as inordinate. I think it has more to do with how popular the recently deceased person was than with what actual accomplishments that person had achieved. Emotions run high in these situations and the way someone's value is perceived often doesn't make rational sense.

It's all to do with numbers. Etta James crossed over into popular culture in a way Johnny Otis never did. "At Last" is said to be one of the most-requested wedding songs of all time. So people that have never listened to any R&B, Soul, Blues or Jazz may well have heard of Etta James. More people knew about her so more was written and broadcast about her. I think it's as simple as that.

[catmandu2]

I think it has more to do with how popular the recently deceased person was than with what actual accomplishments that person had achieved. Emotions run high in these situations and the way someone's value is perceived often doesn't make rational sense.

I often get the sense that, either, you underestimate the relevance of "pop culture" (especially pertaining to matters pop) or... overestimate pop culture...(and its accomplishments)

[KarlM]

It's all to do with numbers. Etta James crossed over into popular culture in a way Johnny Otis never did. "At Last" is said to be one of the most-requested wedding songs of all time. So people that have never listened to any R&B, Soul, Blues or Jazz may well have heard of Etta James. More people knew about her so more was written and broadcast about her. I think it's as simple as that.

Indeed; I know full well who Etta James is even though I couldn't have named a single song of hers (not even At Last, though after listening I think I've probably heard it at some point). I've never heard of Johnny Otis.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Eddie,

You're kidding ... right?

Not trolling. The comparison was made earlier in the thread that the Beatles were 'bona fide' musicians who played their own instruments whereas the Monkees did not... and the reference to the Beach Boys using studio musicians to record their albums... I think the Monkees are being hard done by...

[foldedpath]

Not trolling. The comparison was made earlier in the thread that the Beatles were 'bona fide' musicians who played their own instruments whereas the Monkees did not... and the reference to the Beach Boys using studio musicians to record their albums... I think the Monkees are being hard done by...

Whatever the relative levels of musicianship, the Beatles and the Beach Boys were at least "organic" bands, who got together in the time-honored fashion of a bunch of like-minded musicians hanging out together. That's how I always got into bands, and how I got into the groups I'm playing in now, in my geezerhood.

The Monkees were an artificial band, assembled to spec by a TV studio, with auditions to see who would fit the profile.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned in how I think of musicians, but regardless of what the boys were able to do with that situation after being drafted into it, I think there's a difference.

[woodwizard]

I'm with ya on that foldedpath ... they were entertaining never the less

[Mandolin Mick]

Eddie,

I went to this thread because I was interested in the death of Davy Jones, but as somebody who played in a Beatles tribute band around the country and cut my musical teeth on the Beatles and as somebody who plays 9 instruments ...

I commend you for giving McCartney his due; a master instrumentalist and songwriter.
His bass work in the Beatles pioneered contrapunctal bass playing in the rock genre.

We auditioned countless drummers and I'm telling you that they could play metal, jazz, etc., but when it came to drumming like Ringo ... few can do it. Going from a fast beat to a half beat shuffle, and playing in 4/4 time while the rest of the band is playing in 12/8 like in Happiness is a Warm Gun (which was intentional) takes an incredible amount of skill. Phil Collins has said that few drummers would have any idea what to do with A Day in the Life. Admittedly, he was left handed playing a right handed kit, but that takes above average skill as well ... Charlie Watts has called Ringo the best rock drummer and when challenged he said it was because "it sounds so good". Harrison himself said that Ringo was the best straight rock drummer.

Harrison was very influenced by Chet Atkins and could have easily been a Country session guitarist in Nashville when he was only 20 years old. He pioneered backward guitar, the use of the volume pedal, the use of distortion and many other studio effects.

Though Lennon came around as a guitarist, by the time the Beatles broke up he was taking half the lead work. Clapton has lauded Lennon's guitar work.

I could go on but I'm not going there because I want to keep this brief.

Musical taste is subjective, but by any measure the Beatles were 4 real musicians!

As a Bluegrasser and ex-rocker whose musical heritage is the Beatles ... I had to say something ...

[Charlieshafer]

Well, the one thing I think we've all learned here is that having musical opinions makes one, um, opinionated.

[Steve L]

By the time The Beatles were on the Ed Sullivan Show, they were seasoned professionals playing for hours onstage in Hamburg and touring in England and Scotland. They had made a difficult and unpoplular choice to replace their very popular drummer and survived the death of a member of the band. They were an established act in Liverpool with management, studio experience and were winning music polls, getting write-ups in the press, and getting airplay. They started themselves from nothing.

They were sometimes referred to as the Fab Four. The Monkees are often referred to at The Pre Fab Four. They were contrived for a television show. I have no quarrel with the Monkees, enjoyed their show when I was a kid and liked a lot of their music. I think history and overall popular opinion has been rather kind to The Monkees all things considered.

[journeybear]

Fair enough. The too-cool-for-school crowd back then, during the Monkees heyday, pretty much vilified them as being plastic and pre-fab and phony. But time does change things, and like so many things from the 60s, now viewed through the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia, they have acquired a warmer glow.

There will be an in memoriam piece about Davy Jones on the newsmagazine, CBS Sunday Morning.

Well, the one thing I think we've all learned here is that having musical opinions makes one, um, opinionated.

Boy, do I have an opinion about that!

PS: Nice enough piece. But later in the show, there was a piece about 1962 50 years ago - making it sound like a golden age of cultural achievements. Well, yes, there was definitely some good stuff, like first records released by The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and The Beach Boys, the first gig by The Rolling Stones, and on and on. I got to thinking, we are in for a looong decade full of such remembrances, as we slog through the 50th anniversary of the 60s.

[mandolino maximus]

I got to thinking, we are in for a looong decade full of such remembrances, as we slog through the 50th anniversary of the 60s.

Surely the Golen Age for Boomer Nostalgia. I was dedicated to more "serious" music (classical, jazz, choral, broadway show tunes) in high school and resisted the earworm of Beatles and Monkees started by my younger sister who constantly listened. Still, I couldn't help myself cheering up whenever I heard Daydream Believer on the PA in the gym before school.

That earworm is powerful and they found it.

Then again, I get nostalgic over the Homer & Jethro hit "Let Me Go, Blubber."

[journeybear]

Ha! But then, one should expect that from what your sig line says. I would have liked to have seen them myself, even just once. Didn't understand what Jethro was all about till much, much later in my mandovelopment.