Workshop peeve

[chip]

Just got back from another fabulous Wintergrass. Great times, music,people. The only thing that I find not so good about these festivals is the people who seem to attend the intermediate/advanced workshops and continually take up a good amount of the 45-60 minutes with the same questions in each workshop and have done so for years. Same two gals same questions: "What about the chop" and " I can't get my little finger to do the four finger G chord but such and such showed me this (proceeds to show a 3 finger G position) and is it alright to chop this way....
I don't know if these two are star struck, have dementia and can't remember or just think that there's going to be some "magic answere". Are these legitimate questions for an advanced workshop? It wouldn't be so irritating if they asked once at a workshop but they do it at every one I've attended...really bugs me as it takes up at least 1/3 of the time allocated. Maybe the instructors should start the workshops off by saying" please don't ask about chop etc...ha...
And why does everyone seem to continue strumming while the instructor is trying to talk and demonstrate...geez..sort of like elementary school all over.

[Caleb]

And why does everyone seem to continue strumming while the instructor is trying to talk and demonstrate...geez..sort of like elementary school all over.

I don't like that either and find it very rude. I've also been to workshops and settings where someone is noodling around and doing bits of tunes, all while sneaking peeks to see if anyone's paying attention. I find that as big a turnoff as anything. As if anyone cares or should care what licks or tunes a person knows in such a setting. Reminds me of junior high gym class where boys see who can bench the most.

[billhay4]

IMHO workshops are largely a waste of time precisely because the instructor has to deal with and teach to one part of the audience alone. If you're in the other part, your time is wasted.
I feel lucky to escape a workshop with one good bit of information. A high price to pay in most cases, but at a place like Wintergrass, doesn't it come with the price of the ticket? Perhaps you have less of a beef in an environment like that.
Bill

[chip]

Perhaps but it still just chaps my hide.

[Randi Gormley]

I gotta say the noodling drives me nuts, as does the posturing from the wannabees. There are usually too few mandolin players at the Catskills Irish Arts Weeks for a dedicated teacher and graduated workshops, so we're all in together and usually with a teacher who plays another instrument (guitar or tenor banjo, usually). One year, the teacher had to leave early for a gig and we were sent to a tenor banjo workshop and there was a student who just couldn't keep his fingers off his instrument. Teacher was trying to show a slow student a particularly technical run -- showoff is playing it at the same time in the background; teacher was trying to explain a passage to other students -- showoff plays over the teacher. This was NOT a quiet banjo, if there is such a thing. I'm surprised the teacher didn't bing the wannabee over the head, frankly. I was ready to do so. It's rude to everybody in the class as well as the teacher, but some people just have this need to show off.
One of the teachers (pennywhistle) apparently tells the students she won't have it, and if someone starts noodling, she whacks their hands with her whistle. Problem is, most of the teachers are just too nice to do something like that!

[chip]

I guess I under the impression that intermediate/advanced meant something other than basic beginner techniques. Maybe I should take a Master class instead, but just my luck those two women would show up there also just to irritate me.

[Mandobart]

I agree Wintergrass was great. It was nice to actually have a handful of mandolin workshops there; other local fests I go to don't often feature any mando workshops. I took in a couple, and a couple of fiddle work shops. Sure, noodling and "basic" questions are a distraction. One thing that I found was the great young pickers/fiddlers are real nice folks, and have fantastic playing ability, but not always a lot of teaching/workshop leading ability. Some made it known that they didn't actually pick the subject for the workshop and weren't even sure what the subject in question really meant. They didn't prepare for the workshop like the more seasoned pros or real music teachers do. A couple of these were little more than "hey you guys listen while I play here with my buds!" Anyway, none of this was a big enough problem to drive me away; though I may reconsider taking any workshops from players younger than my pickup in the future...

[Paul Kotapish]

Probably the most important skill a workshop leader needs is the ability to control the room and the energy of the participants.

A good teacher will gently put the kibosh on all noodling and will reveal the structure of the workshop right off the bat so that folks will know what to expect and when it's appropriate to ask questions and whatnot.

Especially at festival workshops, the skill range can make conventional tune-and-lick teaching almost impossible, and a leader generally needs to be prepared to carry the load with a planned agenda of topics and tips and tricks to share. It's possible to wing it, but unless the leader is very skilled and a commanding presence, it's too easy for things to drift into a random, undirected Q&A session dominated by the mundane issues.

[mandobassman]

This is the main reason I have never had a desire to attend a workshop. How much can you honestly learn in a setting like that?

[250sc]

This is the main reason I have never had a desire to attend a workshop. How much can you honestly learn in a setting like that?

A good instructor can leave you with enough material to keep you busy for at least a year.

[mrmando]

I've led what I thought were productive workshops, but had a couple of bad experiences too. It's better when I walk myself through the agenda ahead of time and remind myself what points I want to get across and how I'm going to do it.

The last time I led a workshop, (a) I admit I skimped on preparation; (b) there was a guy in the front row who tried to turn the workshop into lightning Q&A by racing through my handout and feeding me nonstop questions from it -- so he was asking about stuff in Section V while I was still trying to talk about Section III. As Paul says, I should have put the kibosh on it right away. I could have politely told the guy that we'd have 10 minutes at the end for Q&A. Instead, I just let him reel off 8 or 9 questions in a row, until I got completely flummoxed and ended up snapping at him.

[mandolirius]

Unfortunately, workshops at festivals are often an afterthought or given little thought. Not saying this was the case at Wintergrass but it is a common situation. These are usually free workshops, open to anyone attending the festival. As such, they're difficult to do much with and very tough to "police" in any way. They're there more to provide a "see this performer up close" kind of experience. The best strategy is to take a position near the door and, with fairly modest expectations, wait to see what happens. If it looks like it's going to be a long hour, make a discreet exit and look for something else.

[AKmusic]

I went to several workshops at Wintergrass. Complaints? Yeah, it would have been nice to have instructors who were really prepared for the workshop. A few were obviously un-prepared. One workshop was suppose to cover the dymanics of playing 2 instruments together. The "dude" was there and had to start without the "dudette" - who showed up 15 minutes late - and then there was the obivious tension - I left. Another with a couple of girls who knew how to giggle and ramble - I left that one too. And another where the instructors said they didn't even know what the name of the workshop was - or even what they were suppose to do. But I really did enjoy some that pretty much just turned into a "house concert" - didn't really learn a lot, but really enjoyed the music. And there was 2 workshops where I really did get some good insight into things and appreciated the effort by the instructors.

All in all - it is true - the workshops were free with the price of the event. They are what they are. And I enjoyed most of them. There is an opportunity here - for both the event organizers and the instructors to get it together. Lots of room for improvement.

On the other hand - the earlier Intesive workshops were avaliable for the more serious-minded "students"

http://www.acousticsound.org/intensives.html

You pay extra for them, but it's more than an hour long "lets see the stars up close" setting too. I plan to attend one next year.

[gda(v)e]

I was at a Carlo Aonzo workshop at River of the West last year and Carlo has a great way to control the noodlers. He starts his class by saying "The rule is, when I'm talking nobody plays. If you need extra time to work on what I've just taught you, we'll stop and wait for you." Sure enough, there was one joker who couldn't control himself and when he started noodling Carlo stopped and said (in a very kind way) "Oh, so you need some extra time? We will wait." The guy stopped and kept quiet for the rest of the session! Unfortunately it didn't stop him from noodling through the other instructor's sessions. It's always amazing to me how some people have no clue about how irritating they are to others around them!

[Charlieshafer]

At our workshops we really don't want the instructors teaching tunes or licks. We really don't want them "teaching down" to questions about how to finger a chord or do whatever. Each workshop has a distinct purpose. For example, this Saturday we're having Brittany Haas and Lauren Rioux teach a fiddle workshop. We're paying them a hefty amount, and the workshop is free, so from my own perspective, it's got to be good. So, before each workshop we go over with the instructors specific (really really specific) skill sets they'll be working on, with no variation. We always aim at the advanced fiddlers/pickers/whatever, so the beginners just have to catch on and figure it out as they go. If they keep playing for a few years, they'll be able to take advantage of the workshops, but until then, we want the good ones staying motivated, and nothing un-motivates more than boredom. That said, Brittany will be working on improvising fills around a vocal line or chord structure, and Lauren will be covering the-wave fiddlers technical vocabulary, which includes hard chops (up and down with the wrist), soft chops, chunks and the such. After a while, they'll switch students, and at the end play a number.

With Vishten, Pascal worked on the rhythmic swing that makes French-Canadian music what it is. And yeah, they had to use their feet. At the same time, Emma took the dancers aside and worked with them. To see how they did, after an hour and a half, the fiddlers had to play for the dancers for a couple of sets.

Hanneke Cassel worked on the Scots fiddler's vocabulary with triplets and flicks, and hit Strathspey rhythms hard.

The Van Norstrand brothers worked on driving a contra dance, Cape Breton fiddlers work on playing with piano accompaniment, Liz and Yvonne Kane worked on surviving an Irish session, and on down the line.

I think the instructors just need to come in with an agenda, and go for it, with minimal questions that can only be related to the topic. Stay on topic, no matter what some people want, as there will be more who get what they want out of that than the few who aren't good enough to master it yet. In my experience, the serious students who don't have the skills for whatever the technical material is being covered appreciate a workshop that's "over their head" far more than just learning a tune or two. They like to be challenged. There are always jam sessions and fiddle clubs and such to learn tunes at.

I think a lot of the instructors at festivals, unfortunately, just use it as a p.r. opportunity to hang with the fans, and don't take the teaching seriously.

[Paul Kotapish]

Sounds like an ambitious set of workshops for a very focused set of attendees, Charlie, and more typical of what you might find at a week-long (or even weekend) music camp for serious players than what you typically encounter at a big bluegrass, Americana, or Irish/Celtic festival, where the crowd might comprise a mix of players of all levels and interests plus a large dose of nonplaying listeners.

I played a festival this summer where the so-called workshops were really mini-concerts on an open-air stage, and it was broadcast live on the local NPR affiliate. Not a great venue for getting into highly technical discussions about technique or stylistic details. It worked out pretty well, but there were only three or four mandolins among a crowd of 60 folks or more, and trying to teach to them would have been a disaster.

It might be useful to differentiate between "classes" (where some serious, focused work gets done) and "workshops" (which would be more open ended and accessible to the general public).

In either case, some prep and planning on the part of both the promoter and the facilitator and lots of communication between the two with regard to expectations goes a long way.

[EarlG]

I have not found much benefit in workshops. They tend to be more of the instructor just playing. That's best case. It's usually those two described above yakking away. They are at all the workshops.

Workshop environments are just not good for teaching/learning. Camp classes are better than workshops, but the best bang for the buck by far is lessons from some of these same teachers one on one.

Or just buy their cd and download Transcribe.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've found that the workshops held at festivals in the UK by US players,are very well attended, & mostly the atendees are well behaved with no single person(s) trying to show off or air their knowledge.The behaviour outlined above,is simply rude & ignorant (IMHO).It's often the case that some folk just want the attention that asking 'any' question gains.As for 'noodling around' while somebody is speaking,or 'playing over' an instructor, it's RUDE. Unfortunately,these people exist & our only choice is either to ignore them or leave the workshop, making our apology to the instructor as we do so,
Ivan

[Mike Bunting]

I've found that the workshops held at festivals in the UK by US players,are very well attended, & mostly the atendees are well behaved with no single person(s) trying to show off or air their knowledge.The behaviour outlined above,is simply rude & ignorant (IMHO).It's often the case that some folk just want the attention that asking 'any' question gains.As for 'noodling around' while somebody is speaking,or 'playing over' an instructor, it's RUDE. Unfortunately,these people exist & our only choice is either to ignore them or leave the workshop, making our apology to the instructor as we do so,
Ivan

One could ask them to be quiet.

[Caleb]

I disagree with those who see no value in workshops. I’ve personally seen what they can offer. The year I started mandolin I took a workshop at a local Irish festival. The instructor gave advice that I still value today. It made more sense later on than it did at the moment. He mainly taught me how to listen to music as music, and then see how the mandolin could potentially fit in it. He taught me how to listen to other instruments and try to take that to my mandolin. There wasn’t much put-your-fingers-here-and-play-this type a thing, which is what some folks are looking for. You’ll never show up to a workshop as a beginner and leave a virtuoso, but there is much to learn.

My wife took a fiddle workshop early on in her playing that helped her immensely. The instructor had the heart of a teacher and taught her a lot in just a few minutes together. It was foundational stuff, but there is no moving forward without that.


I’ve seen the simplest things make such a difference for a struggler (and there are way more strugglers than good musicians out there). These moments make all the challenges worth it, and there are surely many challenges.

[Mike Black]

Just the simple direction of "Picks Up!" helps with the noodling.

[GDAE]

The workshop leader really needs to make it clear that noodling while he or she is speaking isn't allowed up front. And then pause whenever anyone starts doing it. Workshop attendees should not have to deal with that; the leader should take care of it.

[KristinEliza]

All great comments and observations...

I've had similar experiences - signing up for an intermediate group, and some of the group members are asking beginning questions. I finally decided to sign up for the advanced classes (while my mind understands it all, my fingers aren't ready to play it) and I make sure I never bring the class down! It's been working fine.

The best workshops I've been to are when the instructor is prepared with some information or activity. He/She might stick to their plans, or might veer off once they figure our where the class is or from a question.

The worst workshops are when the instructor has nothing prepared and justs asks the class what they want to know. Usually basic questions (ok in a beginning level, but not intermediate and above!).

My pet peeve is when the instructors give all of their attention to the kids. I'm sure it's not intentional - it's great that the younger generation is participating and will keep this music alive...but, hey, I paid for this class too! And it wasn't to sit and watch you jam with the 10 year olds!

All in all...I ALWAYS take some new nugget of information away from every class I've attended...

[KristinEliza]

oh - and noodling...UGH!

One workshop I attended, the instructor was playing his version of a tune that I adored and I was recording it...and someone in the back decided to join along. I know this is annoying for people that learn by ear and are recording the class so they can learn the tunes later.

[Rodney Riley]

Was at a Christian youth rally one time with a young (20 something ) girl speaking. When the kids started to get loud, she kindof leaned in really focused and talked softer. You know the scrunch your shoulders, duck your head down and forward, clasp your hands, this is really serious, better listen, type of movements. Unbelievable how quiet a gym full of Junior high and High school kids can get. Too bad the instructors/workshop leaders couldn't attend a public speaking workshop.

But I can't complain because I'm not a very good public speaker/instructor person. Those that can and do it well, I have great respect for them. (My red Mandolin Cafe hat's off to you)