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Thread: Playing by ear

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    Question Playing by ear

    I've been playing a short time now, about a year and a half. I can read tab and have learned a few tunes this way but can't read music. When jamming, I can ussually catch on to a tune and do some improvising, by ear.My question is, by playing by ear and not knowing the finger board off by heart, what am I losing out on? I can't help but think that even if I knew the finger board, I wouldn't be able to process it fast enough on the fly to be able to use it.

    I took some lessons and the first thing we started to learn was the finger board. I can name the notes if I think about them, but not on the fly during a tune. My teacher told me once that it's ok to play by ear but there will come a time that eventually you will need to know where you are on the neck. I sort of know what he mean't, but up till this point, I haven't really had to know exactly where I was on the neck while playing.

    So, by knowing the finger board, how has this helped out your playing?
    Thanks,
    Ron

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    Registered User abuteague's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Like you, I can't name the notes on the fingerboard unless I think about it.

    I can read standard notation, play with others in a variety of keys with plenty of sharps or flats, record, perform etc.
    I'd like to know my chords in a more intimate way and knowing the fretboard would help with that.
    Because I don't know the fretboard, I learned to read standard notation geographically: http://sites.williams.edu/tmurphy/ar...-the-mandolin/.

    I'd like to know what others have to say, because I haven't felt the need to learn the fretboard, but I think it is important.

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    Registered User abuteague's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    I wanted lessons so I approached a really good player who records and performs with a band. I asked if he could teach me. He said he couldn't teach me because he didn't read standard notation. He didn't want to "waste my time." I ended up not taking lessons.
    How silly is that?

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    Default Re: Playing by ear


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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    If you know the notes from the nut to the 12th fret you'll be in a really good place for improvising using chord shapes, arpeggios and scales just using patterns without having to think about the actual notes on the fly. The note names will come with time, but if you just get to know the notes in 'slow-time' and learn what the basic shapes are your improvising will take off. We really have the advantage here over guitars. If you know the patterns and know the position of the dominant note, you're off to the races. Just start on the note and apply your favourite lick patterns anywhere from there.

    Brad Laird's book is what gave me my familiarity with this. No financial interest here, it just really worked for me & my way of thinking, so I've no qualms about recommending it.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Beanzy View Post
    If you know the notes from the nut to the 12th fret you'll be in a really good place for improvising using chord shapes, arpeggios and scales just using patterns without having to think about the actual notes on the fly. The note names will come with time, but if you just get to know the notes in 'slow-time' and learn what the basic shapes are your improvising will take off. We really have the advantage here over guitars. If you know the patterns and know the position of the dominant note, you're off to the races. Just start on the note and apply your favourite lick patterns anywhere from there.

    Brad Laird's book is what gave me my familiarity with this. No financial interest here, it just really worked for me & my way of thinking, so I've no qualms about recommending it.
    Thanks Eoin for your input. I never looked at it this way as I ussually stay up on the first 5 Frets. This makes perfect sense when I start to look at the patterns.

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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    In my experience, fretboard knowledge has been more of a by-product than a goal. Getting comfortable with playing rhythm in various keys, then with playing lead in closed positions, means you've learned where the I-IV-V of these keys are, even if you can't instantly name the actual notes. It's a very short step to knowing where the II, III, VI and VII are (of both the key and the chord), and then recognizing the actual notes.

    For example, In the 4-finger G chop chord, a quick look tells you that the I (G) is under both the middle and index fingers, the III (B) under the index finger, and the V (D) under the pinky. This holds true for every chord of that same shape, right on up the neck. Learn these relationships for two or three more chord shapes, and you've got a lot to work with.

    For me, the key has been learning repeatable patterns, and getting more and more comfortable using them in different keys. All the theory is much easier to apply after the fact.
    Mitch Russell

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    formerly Philphool Phil Goodson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Quote Originally Posted by onassis View Post
    I...., In the 4-finger G chop chord, a quick look tells you that the I (G) is under both the middle and index fingers, the III (B) under the index finger, and the V (D) under the pinky........
    I'm sure you mean 'ring' finger for that second I note.

    I agree that the patterns make things easier. If you know where the notes are on the fingerboard, you can go into your 'pattern' for any key. I usually default to having the index finger on the root, but any pattern is okay.

    From that point, I have instant recognition of where the scale notes are found within my 'pattern', so that I can hit the 6 note when the chord progression goes to the 6m chord and then hit the 2 note or the 5 or 7 note when the chords go to the V chord ... you get my drift. Lots of variations and opportunities.
    But knowing where the root is located for any key and knowing relative locations of the scale notes is a BIG help for me when improvising.
    Phil

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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    I'm sure you mean 'ring' finger for that second I note
    Oops That's what I get for trying to type while making dinner...
    Mitch Russell

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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Thanks all for sharing your knowledge and personal insight into how it all comes together for you. This thread has opened up a door for me and made me look at things in a different way. Not just by the book.
    Ron

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    You're not loosing anything at all.In fact there are more plus points in ear playing than negative ones. When you play be ear,you're listening for the 'sounds' being played rather than the actual 'notes by name'. That's exactly where you want to be.Does it 'really' matter if you don't know the name of the note at any particular fret (you will of course, come to know them over time),as long as you hit the correct 'sound'. I've taught myself 3 instruments this way,with very few problems. The ONLY downside (for me) is that if a tune is very complex & i can't figure it out correctly,then i have to resort to TAB in some cases. By ear playing,over time you'll also develop a 'quick' ear ie.the more you do it,the more you'll be able to do it. You'll be able to 'hear through' a band & home in on the Mandolin parts you want to learn.
    We all have our different ways of learning & choosing to learn those thing we think we 'need to learn'. Play by ear as much as you can,but also keep up with the TAB 'when' it's needed & you'll be fine. Being a good 'ear player' really comes into it's own in a jamming situation where you don't know what's coming next.That's why i use I'net radio so much for my 'pick-along' practice. I don't know the next song,it's key or it's tempo - it really keeps you on your toes,
    Ivan
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Agreed with the above posters. The ear is paramount! In particular, hearing how music changes in a relative fashion I think is the most powerful tool for learning songs, improvising, and listening. This particularly applies to tonal music where the relationships between notes are very well-defined. It is fastest for me to play strictly in a relative sense, especially when improvising and things are happening fast. Using concepts like I IV, and V, and scale tone numbers is one way to think of it, but on some level it's even more primitive than that. With practice, you can get to the point where you instantly know how a note is relative to the chord, or the root, or the previous note, or the note in another instrument, etc. And then you translate that relation to the instrument using fret distances, patterns, shapes... The mando is nice in that way, since everything is in fifths and even.

    That said, I think it's very useful to be able to know the note names, and the key signature, and the spelling of chords, for sure. If you are playing along with others, you still need a starting point before you can move in a relative fashion. And it's a common language, so much can be learned from learning the note names as well. But it's a parallel tool that enhances the ability to play purely by ear. Music is a bit like a spider web, where all the nodes are interconnected and strengthen each other!

    Cheers
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    Registered User DamonIRB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Nut46 View Post
    I've been playing a short time now, about a year and a half. I can read tab and have learned a few tunes this way but can't read music. When jamming, I can ussually catch on to a tune and do some improvising, by ear.My question is, by playing by ear and not knowing the finger board off by heart, what am I losing out on? I can't help but think that even if I knew the finger board, I wouldn't be able to process it fast enough on the fly to be able to use it.
    One of my very first music teachers taught me a "progression" that I still live by. Funny enough, it helps in every area of my life, not just music. He told me we all go through 4 phases of learning...

    Unconsciously incompetent - I don't know what I don't know
    Consciously incompetent - I KNOW I don't know what I'm doing
    Consciously competent - I know what I'm doing, but I have to think about it
    Unconsciously competent - I know what I'm doing and it's second nature, I rarely have to "think" to get it done

    This explanation just made sense to me. Sounds like you're at step 3 with the fretboard - you know it, but ya gotta think about it. The only thing that gets you to step 4 is practice and time. For me, scales are the best practice tool to learn the fretboard.

    And for what it's worth, I still at step 1 on the mandolin....

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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Learning the FFcP was a big help for me, getting out of the first position and really exploring the fretboard.
    dwight in NC

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Quote - "Unconsciously competent - I know what I'm doing and it's second nature, I rarely have to "think" to get it done". IMHO,a good 'ear player' maybe gets there sooner than readers who rely on TAB (too much).You get to where you can 'hear the tune in your head', you know where the 'sounds' that you 'hear' are located on the fingerboard & zip ! - you're there. It must become second nature to do this for most musicians,even orchestral players who read sheet music. World renowned concert
    soloists,having learned highly complex music scores,must be able to 'hear it in their heads' - an awesome feat in itself.
    One other thing,don't forget to 'noodle around' a lot. By this i mean simply messing around on the Mandolin - but being aware of what you're doing. Trying things out for yourself in your own way. It's surprising what turns up. I do this a lot if i'm watching TV (as long as my wife's not around).I get a tune in my head & just 'work around it' trying to improvise on it a bit. It's one of my favourite things to do,
    Ivan
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    Registered User geeterpicker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    I envy people who can site read easily, but I do not envy relying on written material. I'd much rather hear it and try to find it. It's one thing to hear the notes, but quite another to find the right and most efficient place to play them.
    Brian

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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    I start out all students with some basic reading stuff. We start with a scale (A major) and learn how to read a tune everyone knows (twinkle twinkle/mary had a little lamb) in that key. We slowly progress through other common tunes and related scales. Takes a couple weeks.

    If you already know tab, I can teach you to read in about a week.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Hey Brian...being able to read doesn't mean you will need to rely on it, or other people need to rely on it, it just gives you more choices in the styles of music you want to play and tunes you want to learn. People who can read get a leg up also because it means they can learn a tune much faster. For example, I can learn a tune in a few minutes of eyeballing the sheet music, whereas a new student who has been playing mandolin by ear for over 30 years told me it takes about a week to learn a new tune.

    Learning to read helps with things like patterns: note patterns (common strains), chord shapes, etc. Learning to read also speeds up technique learning because you'll have access to some pretty awesome exercise books and other "fake books" and stuff.

    But you're right, reading isn't everything. Having/developing a good ear is also critical to being a good player IMHO

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    I know several GREAT players who can't name a single thing they play. They all have superb ears, however. There is no right or wrong here.

    One useful thing about knowing names of chords, notes, etc is communicating them to other musicians

    Banjo player: "Whats that chord there?"

    Mandolin player: "Its an A flat minor seven flat five"

    "Banjo player: "You don't say"
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    You've hit the nail on the head, Pete. Standard notation is almost an anachronism in our modern world. It was, of course, developed for the sole purpose of COMMUNICATING musical ideas at a time when there was no other way besides actually playing the piece. Before recorded music, it was the equivalent of the modern record. There is no more information in written notation than there is in the performed or recorded piece, and anyone who says learning to read notation is a prerequisite for understanding or learning to play music is full of it. If you learn to hear intervals and the way they interract (which is the ultumate goal), it matters not a wit what "letter" a particular note is named. My wife is a classically-trained cellist...since she was a kid in the soviet union. When we were dating, she shocked me when she told me that she was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with the concept of "letter names" for notes. They're not used in the Russian classical tradition...they're called DO, RE, MI, FAH, etc (starting with middle C). it's a much more intuitive and "sound centered" method...allows you to communicate the notes and intervals by singing them.

    And hearing the phrase "play by ear" always makes me cringe...there is no other kind of playing. Even if you're sight reading a piece you've never heard before, you're still "playing by ear". How else would you be playing...by smell?

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    Quote Originally Posted by Levinbravo View Post
    Standard notation is almost an anachronism in our modern world.
    Only in the same way that the written word would be. It's no different. If you want to re-tell a complex story in the way the author intended with all the subtleties and linguistic nuances then you return to the written record. Sure you can listen to someone read it to you but it's not the same as going back to the original. If you just want to sketch out your version of what you've heard & remember, then the written version doesn't matter. But for your main point, you seem to have missed out on what written notation is actually used for. It's no way anachronistic just because we have other more technically complex methods for recording past interpretations. This is why many composers continually return to the urtext of compositions and look to the original manuscripts, they want to explore the original.

    A case in point is this weekend as part of the run up to the 2012 Olympics I'll be playing cello and mandolin in one of three orchestras playing together with a chorus too, in a piece that's never been performed before. We'll be playing in three different keys from left middle and right stage. I'd hate to try to figure that out without notation in two days then perform it the next weekend in front of the 2500 people attending. Sibelius would just melt my speakers trying without the spatial separation and I think it would take me way longer to learn than I will by just reading what's there while making it fit with what's happening. In one jump it gets me over that initial getting the notes learned part. I can focus on listening to the whole orchestra sound and watching the conductor instead of trying to learn the notes or remembering how many bars rest I take here or there. I know that by the end of the weekend I'll know it mostly by heart, but I'll be playing it at a way better level than I would be if I were trying to get the notes in my head first.

    The phrase playing by ear is a specific term referring to playing without musical notation, that's all, no different to 'going by foot' means walking.

    The other method is very common across all of Europe. Check out Julie Andrews in the Sound Of Music in her Swiss school....... no on second thoughts that would be cruel.
    Last edited by Beanzy; Feb-24-2012 at 5:44am.
    Eoin



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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing by ear

    From above - "....sole purpose of COMMUNICATING musical ideas...".I'd say not entirely for the sole purpose. The main purpose was to write down the musical ideas before they were forgotten.The 'main' idea (theme) could then be used as a basis for any additional changes and / or variations that the composer wished to bring about.
    The phrase 'playing by ear' is used to distinguish playing purely by listening & copying,than by any OTHER method. You can easily plug up your ears & still play the 'written' notes in a piece of music (maybe not very well) without hearing them. But 'playing by ear' requires that you 'have to' hear the melody first. You could then plug up your ears & try to play the melody. I find that most folk hearing me do that automatically !.
    Even though i don't now read music ( i could at one time),i still think that playing by ear & being able to read both musical notation & TAB has to be the very best way.You can do one or the other or all 3,
    Ivan
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