The F5G and Steve Carlson

[MikeEdgerton]

It looks like the F5G was introduced during Steve's time at Gibson. For years there has been speculation as to what the G stands for. As Steve posts now and then on the cafe, perhaps he can tell us what the designation stood for.

[George R. Lane]

Mike,
I was told that it was Bruce Weber who came up the idea for the F5G. I maybe wrong but that is what I was told.

[MikeEdgerton]

I would think he had to be working for Steve when it happened then. That's why I'm asking. Mary Weber posts here quite often, I would think that if Bruce knew he would have piped in by now. This gets discussed every few years.

[George R. Lane]

Mike,
I got that information from Mary.

[MikeEdgerton]

Then I would think Bruce would know. Mary? Bruce? Date wise I think Steve was there when the model was introduced.

[Brett Byers]

Just received a text from Bruce that reads: "I came up with the F5G. The G stands for Gibson."

[MikeEdgerton]

Thanks!

[George R. Lane]

Brett,
Thanks for setting us straight, I hope I didn't exceed my authority by using Marys' name.

[Brett Byers]

He also says that Steve Carlson was still there at the time, but that he doesn't remember the dates when the F5G was born. Bruce is a busy guy, and doesn't get the chance to post on here very much at all. Heck, I spend about 50-60 hrs a week working in the same shop as him and sometimes the easiest way for me to talk with him is via text message.

[Brett Byers]

Bruce said I can quote him on this: "For designing the F5G, they (Gibson) let me build my own. Built it with a virzi. Looked great, sounded like crap. Sold it through Mandolin Bros. I should have kept it and just pulled the virzi. Lol." He says he still has the Mandolin Bros. ad featuring the very first F5G that he built. I'll see what I can do about digging that one up over the next few days.

[Brett Byers]

Brett,
Thanks for setting us straight, I hope I didn't exceed my authority by using Marys' name.

No worries George. You're like family at the shop. By the way... I hope you're game for some motorcycle riding/fly fishing fun this summer. I'll be up in your neck of the woods on my KLR with fly fishing gear attached. Would love to have you show me some of your Missouri River secrets.

[Steve Carlson]

There are 3 interesting points about the F5-G as discussed above.

1. "Gibson" had zero (ie "0") involvement on a day to day basis with internal decisions such as giving an employee an instrument. Anything like that would be totally at the discretion of the division manager.

2. Design wise: the F5 and A5-G's followed the example set by the A5-Jr concept. (ie unbound back, peghead, fingerboard, and dark finish. In short . . . no frills.

3. Introducing a new model "Gibson" required authorization from 'Gibson' (signing off) for both name and pricing. It helps to understand that the word "Gibson" here specifically refers to Henry, and in the case of mandolins Henry had appointed Jim Triggs as the 'Gibson' person I worked through for such approval . . . in the case of banjos that appointed 'Gibson' liaison was Greg Rich. While Henry had to give the nod, he looked to Jim and Greg's viewpoint for market perception/acceptance of any such model.

Best,
Steve

[MikeEdgerton]

All of that makes perfect sense. Does the "G" in the name designation stand for anything or was it simply a placeholder of some sort? Was there and F5F for eample?

[MANNDOLINS]

I had an F-5G that I bought used in Tampa around '93...I believe it was dated '89 and had Steve's signature...it also came with a letter noting that it was one of the first three "prototypes" of the F-5G made....does that sound about right Steve?

[MikeEdgerton]

I just re-read a missed post. The G stands for Gibson. Gibson F5Gibson? That's a total surprise. OK, barring an over-ride of some sort, that question now has an answer. Per Bruce Weber, the G in F5G stood for Gibson.

[AlanN]

Well, F-5 couldn't be done, F-5L had already been done, what was left?

[MikeEdgerton]

Well, F-5 couldn't be done, F-5L had already been done, what was left?

A, B. C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z as well as a few numbers

[Steve Carlson]

I had an F-5G that I bought used in Tampa around '93...I believe it was dated '89 and had Steve's signature...it also came with a letter noting that it was one of the first three "prototypes" of the F-5G made....does that sound about right Steve?

That is probably correct.

Time table:

March '87 thru July (Gibson mandolin focus)
Summer '87 thru October (Gibson banjo focus)
October '87 thru March '88 (Gibson A-style development)
Winter '88 thru Fall '88 (mandolin/banjo production focus)
Winter '88 thru October '89 (Gibson Acoustic Guitar focus)
December '88 thru March '89 (Pearl cutting development focus)
January '89 thru March '89 (Steinberger body focus)

The Sunday, October 30, 1988 Bozeman Daily Chronicle, page 1, provides some details of the 22,000 square foot Gibson plant we were setting out to build. It was at the fall Gibson divisional of that year where we were given the acoustic guitar project. This article suggests guitar production was slated to commence in April of 1989.

Sometime before the snow flew in '88, myself and Ren Ferguson visited Nashville and loaded a semi full of Gibson's Acoustic equipment and headed back to Montana where we set-up development operations in the 'Claude Wilson' building. This we dubbed the 'GAD' building (standing for Gibson Acoustic Development). The 1st Montana acoustics were built in this building. Primarily the focus here was re-tooling the guitars. This is also where we started development of the pearl cutting process known as the 'Erika' division.

My recollection is that the F5 and A5-G models came about because of lagging sales. After all . . . we had been producing 6 F5-L's/week for a good while by then. So 'if' . . . your F5-G was dated in '89 then the development of the model occurred while the guitars were launching. I was still involved at the Guitar plant then and at present I cannot recall exactly when I switched roles to Chief Financial Officer of Gibson, which I did for a little over a year. During that year I traveled extensively, Dennis was in charge of the guitar plant, and mandolins were made (somewhat) inside that framework.

I say somewhat because all the best craftsmen and women were of the mandolin ilk and they were constantly pulled off target to keep the guitars on schedule.

It was a year later (from whenever I started as CFO) that I was allowed to pull mandolins out of the guitar plant (back to the red shop).

Bruce and most of the original crew (including Helen W., Joe S., Barry H., Bob M., and Bob W.) were all for this and once again mandolins became our primary focus. Sales soared back to former highs and higher.

Also . . . this division included all shell production and Steinberger body production.

Best,
Steve

[MikeEdgerton]

Steve, As long as we're on the subject, and this may have happened before the Flatiron purchase so you may not know, did the "L" in F5-L stand for Loar or is there another reason it had that name? Believe it or not these things have been discussed at length in the past.

[G. Fisher]

According to the article -The F-5L Mandolin - A turning point in the history of Gibson's acoustic string instruments by Roger Siminoff.

"I offered the idea that we could call this "new" instrument the "F-5L" - the "L" in honor of Master Lloyd Loar."

The article is here and is a pretty interesting story.
http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pub...s_001217.shtml

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, then we have two questions answered if they are ever asked again. Cool.

[Steve Carlson]

OK . . . the earliest evidence I can find is this . . .

May 21st 1988 . . . A5-G

Reportedly originally owned by someone associated with the Osborne Brothers. Don't know anything about that.

Do however see that evidently someone tampered with the serial number label.

Am surprised to see this instrument does not have engraved tailpiece. Unless was lost and replaced I guess.

The reason that is surprising is because I had much earlier bought the Liberty Banjo Co. and with that purchase came the diamond drag engraving machine that allowed us to engrave "The Flatiron" tailpieces, but I had to get an engraving master made for the Flatiron name. "The Gibson" master plate already existed and came with the purchase.

So why this mandolin would not have an engraved cover . . . don't know.

Anyway . . . that gets pretty close to the starting date for Gibson A's and not only suggests but somewhat mandates that A5-G's and A5-L's started at the same time, which makes sense. Unless one assumes the G's were numbered separately from the L's, which they certainly were not. So following from this . . . the F5-G no doubt started around this same time, and was a Sales/Price Point decision.

The previous 'Time table' dialogue has been amended to read:

October '87 thru March '88 (Gibson A-style development)

Best,
Steve

*Update: the plot thickens on this serial # label as I see now there is a thread here that discusses this instrument and it's label. The dates make sense to me. The A5-G and other numbers look like my writing. It looks like two little legs were added to the zero's to make them 9's. That's what I thought originally. Then I noticed the Label says Nashville. I kind of remember that the early labels came from Nashville thru Jim Triggs. So that makes sense. Later we had them printed in Montana and at some point switched to the Montana designation . . . perhaps with the guitars . . . not sure. What I don't know at this time is if the earlier labels used the 7 digit format and we later switched . . . just don't know that for sure.



**Update: here's a pic of a '90 model A5-G with label showing Bozeman, MT designation. Looks like serial #112 maybe. Off the cuff this seems low "if" the 'A' count was at 8 in mid '88. Somewhat of a puzzle.

[Steve Carlson]

After a little further thought:

One further clue to this is the Osborne Brothers connection. 'IF' this instrument flowed through the Osborne band as stated, then the most likely way it got to the Osborne's was through Greg Rich and Jim Triggs. If you look at the picture of the Osborne bus you can see they (at that time) were associated with the bluegrass instruments of Gibson. And this of course was being spear headed by Greg and Jim as the official/unofficial bluegrass artist relations guys. I'm not sure if Charlie D. was still there at that time. His initial stint was about two years as I recall, and neither Jim nor myself are sure of the timing of his departure, but he was probably gone in May of '88.

In thinking this 'Osborne' connection through I realized it was very probable that the prankster duo of Jim and Greg (and Charlie if he was still there) would easily think that doctoring the serial number to be more 'Gibsonesque' would be . . . "a good idea".

So I asked Jim . . . and he states . . . "I think the instrument went to the fiddle player in the band. I don't remember that any doctoring did happen, but it sounds like something we might do, so I can't say that it couldn't have happened."

Best,
Steve

[mandolinlee]

Hi Steve:
I have an F5L, I purchased new through Mandolin Brothers in 1987

The labels read: THE GIBSON MASTER MODEL
Style F-5L
Number 7015098
Nashville, TN., USA

In the treble f hole, dated and signed: September 8, 1987
Steven P.* Carlson

* label is handwritten, the initial may be a B

Regards,
Lee

[Steve Carlson]

Hi Steve:
I have an F5L, I purchased new through Mandolin Brothers in 1987

The labels read: THE GIBSON MASTER MODEL
Style F-5L
Number 7015098
Nashville, TN., USA

In the treble f hole, dated and signed: September 8, 1987
Steven P.* Carlson

* label is handwritten, the initial may be a B

Regards,
Lee

Good Info . . . very early #15. Would have been in the 3rd batch since 6 were made for the July trade show. And when we started shipping it was 6/week.

P. is correct.

I'm sure all signatures would be Steve, not Steven.

My given name is Stephen Paul Carlson.

Contrary to another internet misnomer . . . Flatiron was not started by two brothers . . . Steve and Paul Carlson.

Nice to confirm the 'Nashville' label was used in the beginning.

Thanks,
Steve