Thinking about a Gibson A

[Mo Soar]

Thinking about getting a Gibson A style, and mulling over my choices - would like a carved (not pressed) top and curved back. Dithering over oval vs f holes. Somewhat alarmed about the maintenance issues on a 100 year old mandolin, not interested in paying the Loar-era premium, although I recognize the resale value - but I'm not buying it with an eye toward reselling it any time soon. Why Gibson? Because I like the weight of history behind the brand. Maybe Weber (insert other manufacturer here) makes a comparable instrument and from a point of view of sound and playability there isn't a lot of difference. I don't have the opportunity to play a lot of mandolins to compare (Gibson-Gibson or Gibson-other) and I recognize that not all Gibsons in the same year and same style have exactly the same sound.

Music style: folk, old-time, swing, celtic. Level: rank beginner, play for my own amusement, occasionally playing along with a guitarist. I have an Eastman a style oval hole that I like.

So what is you advice on style, year, model, and what price bracket/range would I likely be looking at? What history sites/resources should I be reading to bring myself up to speed before I even think of buying?

[blueron]

Looking forward to the responses. I love old Gibson As, and one of these years I might just get one..............

[Jim Garber]

Thinking about getting a Gibson A style, and mulling over my choices - would like a carved (not pressed) top and curved back.

AFAIK: vintage Gibsons never had a pressed top. There is a wide range of Gibson As out there and they differ greatly even in the same year of manufacture. I would recommend playing ones in person rather than buying online/mail order. First, figure out your budget. Personally, I prefer oval holes and would think that late teens, early 20s you get the most bang for the buck. i am not a big fan of 1930s f-holes and if you were to go for that configuration maybe you would be better getting a more recently made mandolin. Just my 2 cents.

[Denny Gies]

The old Gibsons often are great for the type of music you like to play. I bought a 1916 A-2 and played it for years. It had a great sound and was, at the time, not outrageously priced. Look for on of them but make sure you play it prior to buying anything.

[allenhopkins]

Sounds like you want a Gibson oval-hole: A, A-1, A-3, A-4, A-2 or -2Z, etc. There are a lot of them out there, since these were the bulk of Gibson products between the beginning of the 20th century, and WWII.

You can still find these for less than $1K. The "paddle-head" instruments from 1914-1922 are the more common; they have a wider headstock that flares out, as opposed to the "snake-heads" where the headstock tapers to a point. The earlier models don't have truss rods, so they feature short, thick necks. Until the introduction of the F-5 in the early 1920's, all Gibson mandolins had oval soundholes, so whatever model you see, it will be an oval-hole. After the introduction of the threaded truss rod (1921 or so), necks tended to be slimmer.

You will hear early Gibson A-models described as "short scale," but that's a bit of a misstatement; the actual distance from nut to bridge isn't significantly shorter, but because of the shorter neck, there are fewer frets between the nut and the body, and the mandolin bridge is located "lower" on the instrument, nearer the tailpiece, than on later "long-neck" models. So you'll find fewer "clear" frets than on your Eastman oval-hole.

You'll also hear the Gibson A-model, oval-hole sound described as "tubby." This is an odd adjective, but there is a bassier quality to the sound, not quite as much treble, with "woody" overtones. All Gibson A-models from this period had carved tops and backs, so you won't find any pressed tops, and in the era before computer-controlled carvers, all were individually hand-processed. Which, of course, can lead to a wide range of individual variations in sound.

As far as I can tell, there's not much difference in basic construction between the cheaper A-models (A, A-1), and the more expensive (A-3, A-4); the main differences were in ornamentation, binding and finish. More experienced Cafe-ers can correct me here, but I don't even think that the "best" wood was necessarily selected for the higher-end models. So in terms of sound, buying a higher-priced mandolin won't guarantee a "better" sound.

Since you're dealing with 80-95-year-old mandolins, condition does become very important. You'll find a few pristine A-models that were left in closets for the whole time, but most have been thoroughly played. Mandolins without truss rods have fewer means of correcting neck problems, so buying from a reputable dealer that can repair and adjust, and has experience with "vintage" instruments, is a really good idea. If you're a collector, finding an instrument with the original bridge, tuners, finish, tailpiece w/cover, and pickguard is a major plus. (The old Gibson celluloid pickguards are well-known for deteriorating with the passage of time.) For a "player's" instrument, some parts replacement, refinishing etc. is acceptable, as long as reflected in the price, and not wildly incongruous.

Most of the major on-line dealers have a good stock of Gibson A-models listed; you can peruse their websites and get some idea of current market prices. Don't necessarily be scared off by a "needs work" listing, especially if you have a good local shop that does competent re-frets, crack repair, etc. Remember, an old Gibson A-model may have 75 years of use, and which one of us will reach 75 without needing a re-fret or two?

I started out playing mandolin on a 'teens A-1 that I found in my grandfather's attic. It had a major top crack that had been "repaired" with adhesive tape, probably about 1940, and the finish under the tape was sadly compromised. But pro repair and a bit of buffing produced a very playable instrument, that I had for years before trading it in on an F-2. I love the sound of old Gibson oval-holes -- still play a 3-point F-2 from 1910 or so -- and I think the combination of good original build, and, as you say, the storied history of these mandolins, makes them fine instruments.

[Mike Bunting]

Thinking about getting a Gibson A style, and mulling over my choices - would like a carved (not pressed) top and curved back. Dithering over oval vs f holes. Somewhat alarmed about the maintenance issues on a 100 year old mandolin, not interested in paying the Loar-era premium, although I recognize the resale value - but I'm not buying it with an eye toward reselling it any time soon. Why Gibson? Because I like the weight of history behind the brand. Maybe Weber (insert other manufacturer here) makes a comparable instrument and from a point of view of sound and playability there isn't a lot of difference. I don't have the opportunity to play a lot of mandolins to compare (Gibson-Gibson or Gibson-other) and I recognize that not all Gibsons in the same year and same style have exactly the same sound.

Music style: folk, old-time, swing, celtic. Level: rank beginner, play for my own amusement, occasionally playing along with a guitarist. I have an Eastman a style oval hole that I like.

So what is you advice on style, year, model, and what price bracket/range would I likely be looking at? What history sites/resources should I be reading to bring myself up to speed before I even think of buying?

Why do you want one?

[Mo Soar]

Thanks for the info, guys!

@Allen - you guessed it, Elderly's descriptions sort of terrify me. It makes me think that their descriptions are more comparative than absolute, ie: For a 1916 instrument, this is in EC.

@Jim - It was this instrument (a 1935 A-00) that led me to believe that there were some pressed tops.
http://www.umanovguitars.com/store/d...&cat=650&path=

@Mike - Why do I want one? Because I suspect - although I don't know for sure, which is why I am also asking for info to read up on - that there is a pretty wide continuum of mandolin sound based on the mandolin itself, rather than setup or strings or playing style (I realize I am leaving out playing skill). In sound, to me, the Eastman feels .... tight or close in its range. For my general novice level it's a great mandolin, better than I am able to coax sound out of. The spouse set it up for me, and while he is a "guitard" (as his bass-playing friends call him), the action and playability are very good, particularly compared to the store models where I bought the mandolin (from a store that is recognized as being the best acoustic instrument store in Southern Oregon).

Otherwise, lol, general MAS. Armed with enough info, I'd ideally be able to travel somewhere with a large selection of used/vintage/new mandolins and try them all, but not without a better clue of what I am looking for.

[Bill Snyder]

I don't see anything in the instrument description you linked to that suggests a pressed top.

[Mo Soar]

Right you are, Bill, now I'll have to hunt down where (amongst the approx 50 I looked at this morning) where I saw that....

[f5loar]

Since you are torn between oval and F hole A's hard to beat an old Gibson A50 from the 50's. Then again why not a more recent 90's Gibson A5 to satisfy the f hole and a long neck at the same time. You really need to narrow your field into oval or F hole and prewar vs postwar.

[allenhopkins]

Right you are, Bill, now I'll have to hunt down where (amongst the approx 50 I looked at this morning) where I saw that....

I believe that all the Gibson A-model mandolins had carved tops. The A-00 originally had a flat, non-carved back, though Gibson went to a carved back sometime in the 1930's. Gibson-made Kalamazoo mandolins apparently had flat or pressed tops, but this was a budget line not labeled "Gibson."

The A-00 has f-holes, not an oval hole, so it won't produce the oval-hole sound. After introduction of the F-5, Gibson started making A-body, f-hole mandolins sometime in the 1930's (?). These included the A-00, A-40 and A-50. These are also good instruments, overall, but won't sound like the oval-hole A-model mandolins.

[GreasyCreek]

Hey Mo,
I'm right with you, but went ahead and pulled the trigger on a 1921 A2 last week. Pics here. I went around my region and checked some out that people were selling or just owned, so I got the chance to compare several teens-20s As to my Collings MT. The Collings has a brilliant treble and high end and I love it in every way. But I play oldtime music at this point, mostly, and I liked the bigger mellower bottom end of the oval hole Gibsons I heard. I am very happy with the one I bought (until and unless the gurus here tell me it's got some problem I missed) but I admit that buying off fleabay seemed like a big roll of the dice. Good luck and be assured there are a lot of them out there....

[Marcelyn]

I'm a big fan of teens ovals for old time, especially the paddle heads because they're such a better deal. I found mine at Gruhn's Guitars which was a day trip, but very worth it. The thing is, I played several, and while they all sounded fine, only one really shined in my opinion. I was a really new player at the time, but it was clear to me even then that it was a cut above. I think that's part of the fun in buying an old Gibson, finding the one that really speaks to you.
They also had it completely set up. When an old Gibson is well set up, I think it's one of the most playable mandolins out there. Personally, I feel the thicker neck is easier to get around on as well.
Like you, I was really paranoid at first about taking care of a century-old instrument, but if you buy one without cracks or sinkage, I've come to believe it will probably outlast you. Since then, I got an H2 mandola as well, and it sounds incredible. They both have all the things I really love about the old Gibson tone--lots of sustain, volume, and rich bass. It's true that they do have a woodier sound than many other mandolins. It's hard to describe, but many mandolins have a clear--almost glassy or bell-like tone--which is very lovely too. With an old Gibson though, you are constantly aware that the sound is coming from a wooden instrument.
Good luck in finding a mandolin. You sound like someone who enjoys finding an instrument with some stories and history behind it. Gibson ovals definitely have a lot of character.

[barney 59]

What I have found with a lot of old A models is that they are stiff and crunchy when you first come upon them. I think in many cases it's because they haven't been played in a very long time and probably could do with a good set up . This can be true even with ones that you find hanging in shops. I find that even with my own if they haven't been played for a few weeks that they get sleepy. Some shops will take the time and clean them up and set them up. Other shops just hang them and some don't even change the strings. If you find one that has no major issues, good frets,straight neck,no top sag or cracks you will end up with a good mandolin in most cases. The prices are way down right now pretty much across the board on vintage A models. The major dealers are a bit behind the curve on that I think and their pricing is often still pretty high. I also notice that the inventory at a lot of places is pretty stagnant and common vintage items seem to be available for a long,long time judging from the dealers websites. I keep thinking that the prices from dealers are going to start falling as soon as someone breaks rank and decides to move inventory. ebay prices are almost at a give away,at least if you follow the ones that sell. I've seen some go for as little as $400 and if you averaged them out it's probably about $800 for Gibson A, Ajrs, A1's and even an occasional A2 model mandolin with what appears to be no major issues and also no special features--(like snakeheads) .

[MONami]

I went through a similar fascination not long ago, but most of the old Gibson A's I played were not very good sounding.
I believe that I just don't care for that particular old sound. It sounds like most older instruments have lost acoustic capability as the petrification process has occurred. I don't like short necks, either, for that matter.

The one minor exception was a teens oval Gibson A I played last week that appeared to be mahogany bodied--it was loud and bright, and if not for the top dollar asked, I might have considered it.

[allenhopkins]

...most of the old Gibson A's I played were not very good sounding....most older instruments have lost acoustic capability as the petrification process has occurred....a teens oval Gibson A I played last week that appeared to be mahogany bodied--it was loud and bright, and if not for the top dollar asked, I might have considered it.

Since Medusa replaced Lloyd Loar in the Gibson shop, this process accelerated...

Can I ask what component of the mandolin is becoming "petrified"? Wood, finish, ????

Not aware of any Gibson A-models before introduction of the A-40 that had mahogany back and sides; maple or birch, IMHO.

[pfox14]

There's something about the Ivory Top A-3s that I really, really like. Here's one on eBay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-A-3-M...item2a18f0b27c - current bid is $1250

[Mo Soar]

Thanks for the advice, all - I'll be doing a bit of traveling this year and I might have the chance to stop at several dealers with used and vintage stock, so now I have an idea of what I want to look for. I wouldn't buy one without the chance to play a couple and make sure the sound appeals to me.

Is there a reference/history publication for background info on the instruments and info on years, models, serial numbers?

[JeffD]

It sounds like most older instruments have lost acoustic capability as the petrification process has occurred. .

Yikes! That has not been my experience. An instrument that is left unplayed,with strings loose, lying around in all kinds of conditions, for years and years neglected, well such an instrument can sound kind of flat and lifeless. But a well played well cared for old instrument can be a delght.

[Marcelyn]

Maybe Spann's Guide to Gibson 1902-1941 would be what you're looking for.
I'd say my A3 has only bettrified over the last 100 years.

[GreasyCreek]

Is there a reference/history publication for background info on the instruments and info on years, models, serial numbers?

yes...there is Spann's guide
http://www.amazon.com/Spanns-Guide-G...8116577&sr=1-4

also Gruhn's guides have some good discussion of them...

The Mandolin Archive is fabulous
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/


And you'd probably enjoying listening to and reading about the models that Grisman plays on Tone Poems
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00_i00_details
and the sequel
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00_i01_details

[EdHanrahan]

Largely agree w/ Jeff, except...

An instrument that is left unplayed ... can sound kind of flat and lifeless.

I have little REAL evidence, but strongly suspect that this is a situation where a bit of TLC (that is, play the heck out of it!) will "wake it up", as some folks like to say.

My only apocryphal evidence is my '94 Flatiron Festival, that I had left unplayed for maybe 18 months.

The first time I went back to it, I was shocked that it sounded, uhmm, "flat and lifeless." But thinking of what some had said here about "opening up" (not that I'm a big advocate), I spent an evening wailing on it in the backyard, and that did the trick. "What the.... Ya mean yer ready to play me now? Let's go!"

Decades of inactivity might take longer than 3 hours to remedy, but probably well worth the effort.

Main reason for this response is that I ALSO really like my '17 A-1, that probably also spent years or decades of inactivity but now sounds great (although nothing like a bluegrass instrument).

[Mo Soar]

Okay, so I found my 1918 Gibson A, at well under a grand. Original tuners, original pick guard, original bridge, original case, little to no fret wear (or the entire fretboard has been replaced and I can't tell). There is a receipt in the case for a thorough setup in 1974 (at a cost of $200, which my handy inflation calculator says is $575.00 is 2012 $$).

The tone is gorgeous, completely unlike any of my other mandolins, much deeper and louder and I suppose the word is "woody."

BUT: I had a hard time winding the string evenly on the non-tapered tuners, and the strings slip constantly - it's hard to play for more than 10 minutes without a serious re-tune. (I've played about 5-6 hours on these strings now.) When I got the mandolin, it had 10-11 turns on each tuner, and I wound it with the standard 3 winds I learned to do on more modern, tapered tuners. Should I have used more winds?

The intonation on the G string is off to my ears (and my Peterson clip-on strobe tuner) and MAYBE the D is off as well, which would probably mean that the bridge needs to be reset. Looking at the nut, the A and E strings sit much higher than the G and D strings. The action is a little high, IMO.

I don't have anyone in my area that I trust to do the work and I don't want to send it off. I am considering buying replacement tuners, if I can find some that fit the original spacing (SOMEONE must make tapered tuners to drop in). Likewise I am considering a replacement adjustable bridge, because it seems to me that you only get one shot at a non-adjustable bridge and I'd rather not screw the original up.

Cost is only somewhat of an issue - I'm not looking for the cheap fix, I am looking for a good fix for this lovely old thing (the same age as my father, rest his soul).

[Schlegel]

I don't think you have to replace the tuners. I suspect you just need to change the way you wind the strings. I have several mandolins with non-tapered posts and don't have this kind of problem. Are you locking the plain strings? Also, are you sure it's the posts and not the strings binding in the nut or bridge slots?

[Jim Garber]

Excellent tutorial on how to string a mandolin at Frets.com. What Schlegel referring to by locking is on this page. I don't wind the strings around the post that much at all, just lock them under.