"Loar" mandolin

[Winfieldpicker]

All,

I have a credit at a store that would cover the cost of one of these mandolins:

http://www.acousticvibesmusic.com/ca...oducts_id=1611

I'm primarily a flatpicker, but thought I'd buy a mandolin for fun, and to improve my right hand in general. I don't know a lot about lower end mandolins..is this one worth the purchase or would I be better off buying strings and picks for my guitar? I appreciate any and all input, thanks.

[Folkmusician.com]

Very nice mandolins. Currently the best at the price point in my opinion.

[Keith Witty]

Sound and playability are top notch, sound is top notch for the price range, playability is top notch to anything, imo.

[almeriastrings]

It will need a lot of setup. As supplied from the factory, setup is non-existent. The frets in particular are often poorly installed. Overall quality control can be very poor. The finish is incredibly thick. They are also very variable in quality of materials used - some good, some not-so. The bridge is not very good, and really needs changing out. The tailpieces are also very poor, but you can get by with those. Even so, they benefit from changing. The tuners are surprisingly good. I am working on two of this model right now. Putting a speed neck on one, and doing full setups on both of them. They are a decent mandolin after a lot of setup and with a bit of customisation. The fundamentals of a decent mandolin are there, but it does take work to bring them up to standard.

[Keith Witty]

Almeria, you irritate the crap out of me with your nitpickiness of them. I've had the starter bridge on mine for over a year now; no problems. Sounds pretty darn good to me. I've had the original tailpiece on it; no problems. A person DOES NOT IN ANY WAY *HAVE* to upgrade them to make the mando. To say so is not true, and you do more than just hint that you believe that to be the truth. The fact is, they sound and play great, and are not hard on the wallet. It doesn't take much work to get it up to par. Just a set up. And most mandolins need a set up, so that point is nearly moot.

Have a good day.

[Ben Milne]

Almeria's post pretty much sums up my feelings and experience on this subject.

[almeriastrings]

Keith,

I have fully and objectively documented the problems with these. I am aware of your unbound enthusiasm for them, but it should not blind anyone to the facts. See:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...Loar-LM-700-VS

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ight=tailpiece

I actually own one of these, and do think they are a nice mandolin, but to pretend that the QC problems and other issues do not exist is really pretty silly. They self-evidently do. I am not going by one example, either. I've worked on 8 of them now (have two on the bench today in fact) and will shortly be posting a comparison between the LM-300 and the Kentucky KM-505. I'm sorry if you think things like an incorrectly installed tailpiece (actually touching the top), or a bridge of weak, low grade ebony with filler past in one of the feet is "nitpickiness". I don't.

[Keith Witty]

I just think it is severely misleading to say something like, "They are a decent mandolin after a lot of work." That is just a wrong statement. A set up is all that is really *needed* for one. Not a lot of work. You write of them as if they are low grade junk because you don't like their cosmetics. I'm not the only Loar owner who feels that way. The bridge does not *need* replaced, the tailpiece is fine, you said so yourself. You should be aware that you really do seem to discourage buying one in all your posts about the subject, claiming that that require so much work. They don't.

[almeriastrings]

the bridge is fine, you said so yourself..

I must be suffering from amnesia. Could you please highlight where I said that?

Unless my memory fails me, I have consistently said that in my opinion the bridge is not very good and really does need an upgrade.

[Ben Milne]

Actually I got the vibe that you should buy one from a reputable dealer renowned for good setups, unless you are capable of dealing with such issues. I think Almeria's posts should serve to be very helpful to potential customers to be realistic about what they might encounter, and perhaps avaoid heartache and disappointment.
I understand how people could easily be blinded by the shiny gloss finish and fancy headstock inlays then be confused as to why their instrument didn't function very well.
Along with the number of rave reviews from The Loar fanboys such as Keith was what prompted me to see what all the hype was about.

[almeriastrings]

FWIW, I think the "Loar" range can be very nice mandolins, and models like the LM-400, LM-600 and LM-700 punch far above their price point (once you have the setup and any issues ironed out). I actually do feel it takes more than just a "normal setup" to get these optimised, though. One thing is the "sticky" super thick finish on the neck. I found it really annoying and my hand felt like it was being "grabbed" by it. If you have ever scraped one of these down, you will know just how thick it is on there, too. A "speed neck" on these makes a huge difference to playability. At the same time, you can reprofile the neck to your taste if required. With that done, and a tung oil finish applied, it feels like a different instrument, but this is going beyond a typical "setup" of course.

I am not "anti" The Loar at all. I do use mine! It is great for taking outside, to parties and for travel. I also use it regularly onstage and find it mics up really pretty well. You just have to put it in context. It is a great mandolin for around the $1K mark, but is by no means perfect, and yes, an F5 Fern does outperform them by quite a lot.

[Mike Bunting]

Actually, Almeria's posts on the subject have led me to respect the brand a little more. The limited number that I tried in the store where I teach did not impress me at all, fence post necks, bomb proof finishes and an undeveloped and, to my ear, somewhat harsh tone led me to ignore them as an instrument that I would recommend to beginning students. Thanks to his serious examination of them I can see now that they could be a useful instrument. Nevertheless, I cannot see why anyone would spend the money on a new instrument only to have to do such extensive modifications when you can buy other instruments in the same class and only have to do a basic standard setup.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Keith - In defense of Almeira (although he doesn't need my input),if he's personally experienced the problems he mentioned,he's got a valid point. However, we all know that instruments from the same factory can be world's apart in set up etc.. Your particular instrument may have been fine from the outset,but, with a CA bridge for instance,it 'might' become very much better. If in Almeria's (and others point of view) the finish 'is' thick,then that's what they have experienced.I personally know of one 'Cafe member who took delivery of a 'The Loar' "A" style not too long ago & experienced almost exactly what Almeria points out.
The 'The Loar' instruments do have a good reputation,but they're not alone in needing a good set up in the 'as delivered' state. However,i haven't heard that the 'Kentucky' brand instruments need quite so much re-setting up,hence maybe Mike Bunting's comment re.'other instruments in the same class'. It's easy to become annoyed with the adverse views of others,when your own experience might have been totally the opposite,but we all have our own points of view,so let's learn from them - Peace brothers !,
Ivan

[wildbill1962]

After reading this post, it makes me wonder if I have a made a mistake of ordering a Loar 520 as my first Mandolin. I had my mind set up that I wanted an F style. So I looked over all of the F-style at Folksmusician and for the money I had, and wanting a solid wood, "The Loar" looked like a good deal. Also from reading post about what would make a good starter mandolin, The Loar and Kentucky names always listed in the top choices. (For budgets like mine).

Mine will arrive later next week, hopefully it will be everything I hoped it will be. But now you guys have me worried that it will not perform as well as I had hoped.

Have a great weekend
Bill

[Ben Milne]

Bill, rest your fears, you have made an excellent choice for your first mandolin.
Robert of folkmusician.com stands by his setups and is a valued member of the mandolin cafe community.
I wish you many happy hours of playing on your new instrument.

[Dave Cowles]

These instruments are priced at a step above "entry level" mandolins, and are an incredible bang for the buck. A good setup is imperative on every mandolin at any price. I am not a "The Loar" fanboy, but I like mine very much, and play it just as much as I play my luthier-built F5. I don't think the OP will be disappointed.

[nickster60]

I have only played 2 Loars and liked them both. Daves Loars played well and sounds very good. I guess it would be best to buy one of these mandolins from a shop that does a good setup. If you decide to buy from a big online retailer than who knows what you will get. You can't go wrong with Robert from Folkmusician or Steve from Giannas Violins

[Keith Witty]

I must be suffering from amnesia. Could you please highlight where I said that?

Unless my memory fails me, I have consistently said that in my opinion the bridge is not very good and really does need an upgrade.

I was on my iphone, hard to type. Must have had a brain fart. I corrected it not 5 minutes later, though.

[pefjr]

An interesting squabble thread. Hey, I have often wondered myself what is all the fuss about a tail piece? A piece of tail I can see arguing about, but what possible difference could a tail piece make, other than cosmetic? Plus, I have never seen a tail piece that really added much cosmetically over any new one. An old rusted one ,yes, I can see that. My son just bought a $3000.00 vintage jazz guitar with an ebony tail piece. However..........inside the tail piece was a small bone saddle to protect the ebony. How about that? An expensive ebony tail piece,....but no contact with the strings, oh well, he loves it.

[almeriastrings]

Normally, I don't think a tailpiece does, or should, make any difference. The exceptions are when the cover is not properly fitted, when it will rattle, and again if it is not correctly fitted and damped which will result in unwanted overtones behind the bridge. Both can be fixed, of course. For around $15 you can also just put a generally nicer, heavier made one on there. The ones on 'The Loars' are very generic in terms of hole spacings so changing them takes just a few minutes. They factory ones work (provided they do not have the above faults), but are very thin and flimsy feeling. If you are OK with that, then save your $15.

[Paul Hostetter]

It will need a lot of setup. As supplied from the factory, setup is non-existent.

Will you please let up? Maybe you saw one from a European distributor and had a problem with it, but many people are having very different experiences, and your endless complaints are really wearing me (for one) out. Full and objective?—I think not. Endless is a better description. In any case, what can one possibly expect for $220?

[almeriastrings]

Will you please let up? Maybe you saw one from a European distributor and had a problem with it, but many people are having very different experiences, and your endless complaints are really wearing me (for one) out. Full and objective?—I think not. Endless is a better description. In any case, what can one possibly expect for $220?

Really? I think if people are considering a purchase they need to consider the full picture. Not just the sales talk. As for "maybe you saw one", well, clearly you have not bothered to even read what I have actually said. To date, it is 8 of them. All in here for setups because as purchased, they were unplayable and without exception had various defects. The "official line" that this only affects us poor European saps is also wearing rather thin and every defective example is an "unmarked second". I don't buy it. This is what Stephen Perry said in another thread:

I have been underwhelmed by some aspects of "The Loar" instruments, have communicated my concerns to the company, and have seen real effort towards improving those aspects. I can't help but acknowledge that issues coming out of the factory remain, including the quality of the bridges and finish work. The quality of the in-house setup at the warehouses also varies.

That is the US of course. The problem is basic factory QC with these, and potential buyers deserve to be made aware of it. Sorry if that annoys you, but if people ask about them I am entitled to provide my opinion on them. If they deal with the QC issues, my opinion will no doubt improve too.

[almeriastrings]

Since we are talking specifically about the LM-220 VS here, this is what a normal bridge looks like when set to give a typical workable action at the 12th fret:



This is what the bridges on two LM-220's look like to achieve the same string height:





There are several obvious problems. First, the neck angle is set back too far, second, the neck is set too high in the body, finally, the posts on the bridge are installed out of true. The result is a bridge saddle barely balancing on what little remains of the posts, and which has a strong tendency to lean.... the bridge itself is poor quality...

This is a structural/design/assembly issue. It seems more common on their 'A' styles than on their 'F's, but I have read of similar reports affecting those too. The owner of this one did not want to have to spring for a full bridge upgrade, but I don't think he has much option.

[Barry Wilson]

I just got the 600. it was setup before I got it and it's just the stock bridge. all my buds have said that it sounds so much better than the other 2 I have and I love the way it plays and the dynamics. that blond I had was just loud.. I'm very happy... there's no light under my bridge so maybe I just got a good setup. the cosmetic crap inside the scroll doesn't bother me. mine actually has a nice finish under the neck I have heard complaints of. tailpiece doesn't rattle, lid fits and top edge doesn't touch the strings.

I also like the wider neck a lot. it feels less cramped to me. I would just go play it before spending the store credit and check for loose frets

[Ron McMillan]

There are clearly two sets of situations here. The ideal one is if The Loar is bought from a reputable dealer (most often in the USA), and it arrives having had a good set up job already done. The second situation could hardly be more different, and affects many buyers outside the USA, myself included. With no set up done, my LM400 arrived unfit for purpose and totally unplayable. Because of my location I had to do a complete set up myself - and I mean complete - AFTER which it was a superb instrument and great value for money. Almeria is correct, but his and my situation needn't affect buyers in the USA who purchase from good dealers, many of whom are members of this forum.

Ron