Are capos cheating

[EggerRidgeBoy]

It's just that there ain't much neck left when you capo up . [like at the 5th fret],
and the damn thing is in the way to play the 1st fret on the E string with your index finger..

As mentioned earlier in this thread, bluegrass banjo players regularly use capos. One who didn't is Don Reno. When asked why, he supposedly said "There's more notes that way" (or words to that effect).

From an online Don Reno style workshop: "There are a few reasons that Don did not use a capo in a live situation... the main reason is that when you put a capo on, it limits your ability to use the whole neck of your banjo. As you know Don was all over the neck. He may have wanted to hit lower notes that weren’t available to him once the capo is on."

[mrmando]

When reading sheet music flats are flats and sharps are sharps. I can't even imagine trying to keep up converting flats to sharps as I'm reading a new piece.

But nobody writes sheet music in seven sharps, do they? ... unless perhaps it was a clarinet part for an orchestral composition in B major. In western harmony there is no such thing as a "key of C sharp," because conventionally a composer wouldn't use more than six sharps.

[Paul Kotapish]

Cheat away. Unless you play in a bluegrass band, nobody will care, and it might sound better than floundering. Sometimes it sounds better even if you can play it without the capo just as well. Sometimes those open drone strings are just what the music doctor called for.

[OldSausage]

It's not that they're cheating, they just cut you off from the lower notes that make your mandolin sound good. That's why people don't use them, because you end up with this squawky parakeet instead of the beautiful instrument you paid for.

[Jacob]

In Western music there are three pairs of enharmonic key signatures, where two separate notations stand for the same sound:
C#, 7 sharps and Db, 5 flats.
Gb, 6 flats, and F#, 6 sharps
Cb, 7 flats and B, 5 sharps.

[Tom Wright]

But nobody writes sheet music in seven sharps, do they? ...

I think this is true in that no composer has begun a piece in C sharp major, but Richard Strauss ended up in 7 sharps in his opera Salome. Shostakovitch used 7 flats at least once, I think in a piano quintet. Presumably these keys made sense to the composers in the context. Sometimes chord-progression logic leads to weird spelling---at one place in a Bruckner symphony the melody moves from C flat to B sharp, up a half step, although it looks like you move down on the staff.

[stetson]

But nobody writes sheet music in seven sharps, do they? ... unless perhaps it was a clarinet part for an orchestral composition in B major. In western harmony there is no such thing as a "key of C sharp," because conventionally a composer wouldn't use more than six sharps.

OK... that was an example. I wouldn't want to try to convert one flat to a sharp on the fly with a new piece of sheet music. Maybe others can. I do well to play what is written.

[greg_tsam]

Badges? We don't need no stinking badges. Or capos either!

[allenhopkins]

It's not that they're cheating, they just cut you off from the lower notes that make your mandolin sound good. That's why people don't use them, because you end up with this squawky parakeet instead of the beautiful instrument you paid for.

Putting a capo on the first fret, to play in E♭with D fingerings and a couple open strings, does not convert my singing lark into a "squawky parakeet."

I think one of the main reasons "people don't use them" is that many mandolinists play bluegrass, and it's not all that difficult to play in the the keys most bluegrass bands tend to use ––#G, A, B♭, B, C, D -- without capoing. And a lot of other mandolinists play with fiddlers, who tend to play in a limited number of keys.

Where I hear the most about capo use, is from mandolinists who work a lot with singers, who want to pitch their vocals in E♭or some such, because their voices sound best in those keys. That's the situation in which I have generally used a capo on the mandolin, or retuned a half-step to be able to use open strings.

Tonight I was at a sing-around, and for some reason a lot of guitarists slapped on capos and played in "odd" keys. I had my little Martin Style A along, and noodled behind the vocals, picking up the melodies and chords with a lot of "closed" fingerings and less familiar scales. Good practice -- but if I had to perform or record, I would have used a capo or retuned, to get the sound I'm used to.

[ralph johansson]

I think this is true in that no composer has begun a piece in C sharp major, but Richard Strauss ended up in 7 sharps in his opera Salome. Shostakovitch used 7 flats at least once, I think in a piano quintet. Presumably these keys made sense to the composers in the context. Sometimes chord-progression logic leads to weird spelling---at one place in a Bruckner symphony the melody moves from C flat to B sharp, up a half step, although it looks like you move down on the staff.

In Debussy's sonata for flute, harp and viola one movement is in the key of B. The harp is notated in Cb. I understand that the pedals allow you to raise or lower the pitch of all strings by a halfstep, so I wouldn't be surprised to see harp music notated in C# as well.

[ralph johansson]

We have two acoustic guitars, one electric and me on my mandolin or violin in our band. Plus a drummer, pianist and several vocalists.

The two acoustic guitar players are constantly using a capo.

In another thread I just posted I mentioned I prefer sharps, even 7 sharps (C#). That means I have to know the chords and scales for each and every key we play in. But the guitarists will use a capo any time we get beyond G or Bb. They are excellent players and I'm sure they could play any key required. But they almost always take the capo way out.

Do you think that's cheating? Last week one of them forgot to take the capo off when we started the next song which threw him into the wrong key. I say....

LEARN THE CHORDS FOR THEY KEY WE'RE IN!

Am I too much of a purist?

This post is a bit puzzling. Are you saying that the guitarists play uncapoed in G and Bb, and capoed in other keys? That's very strange.

Anyway, the use or non-use of capos is idomatic. In the music I play I usually want a controlled chordal sound from my guitar, so I have no use for a capo. On mandolin I've found that the keys of F and Bb stand out as particulary versatile, and it would be silly to throw away all those nice possibilities by reducing to supposedly easy keys like G. In fact, in that key I have to struggle not to fall into finger-friendly patterns. Eb is another very good flat key, and I do play a few songs in Ab. If you can play in A you can play in Ab, just move your fingerings back one fret. I don't share other people's fascination with open strings - I avoid them, and when I can't I often mute them.

Just the other day I performed a little experiment (on guitar). I tried to improvise on Carter's Blues, quite a challenge since it's an 8-bar form with just two chords. I started in B with a capo on the fourth fret, then after a few verses I removed the capo.
Obviously there was less splash and ring to my playing then , but I also found that I was suddenly moving all over the fretboard, finding new variations all the time.

[Bertram Henze]

...That's why people don't use them, because you end up with this squawky parakeet instead of the beautiful instrument you paid for.

Putting a capo on the first fret, to play in E♭with D fingerings and a couple open strings, does not convert my singing lark into a "squawky parakeet."

Compared to my booming OM, every mandolin sounds like a squawky parakeet, capoed or not

The loss of good sound comes gradually, the higher up the capo sits. First and second fret is no problem for me (on the OM), but above that the sound starts getting underwhelming.

On a mandolin, I'd not use a capo because it hampers hand movement on an already claustrophobic fretboard.

[Malcolm G.]

Compared to my booming OM, every mandolin sounds like a squawky parakeet, capoed or not

The loss of good sound comes gradually, the higher up the capo sits. First and second fret is no problem for me (on the OM), but above that the sound starts getting underwhelming.

On a mandolin, I'd not use a capo because it hampers hand movement on an already claustrophobic fretboard.

Fully agree - own many - never use them except sometimes on my 12 string guitar which is tuned down one full tone.

[kidgloves2]

Capos are not cheating. For me they're about having more available open strings. I use open strings heavily. They're also great for transposing on the fly. They're more useful on guitar and banjo than mandolin I think, but if I saw someone using one on mandolin I wouldn't judge them.

Let me ask you, is down tuning a guitar cheating? Because that's the opposite of using a capo. It's not cheating.

Likewise, are alternate tunings cheating?

[Wolfboy]

But nobody writes sheet music in seven sharps, do they? ... In western harmony there is no such thing as a "key of C sharp," because conventionally a composer wouldn't use more than six sharps.

Prelude and Fugue in C-sharp major, BWV 848, from The Well-Tempered Clavier by J.S. Bach.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread topic...

[JeffD]

I have a friend that tells me that playing in second or third position is cheating - just a way to avoid using the pinky.

My attitude towards the capo can be summarized by that old 70s television old show "All in the Family"

The Meathead said to Archie Bunker: "You would put ketchup on a donut."
To which Archie replied: "If it needed it."

[Dan Margolis]

As a jazz-trained player I can play in any key without a capo. In some idioms, though, a capo is correct. Play most bluegrass without one and the other players will look at you funny. Some of my guitar heros use capos. I'm not going to say that they're wrong!

[AlanN]

I pick with an old-timer. If a tune is in D chord, he'll strap the capo on 7 and play out of G. He has trouble with an A chord. That could be called cheating.

[Denny Gies]

I think it's a matter of personal taste and talent. However, capos aren't called "cheaters" for nothing.

[Bertram Henze]

There's a next level to cheating: fraud...

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Bertram, what is that thing! Link?

Cheers
MRT

[Bob Bronow]

Wow, looks like it turns a guitar into an autoharp!

[allenhopkins]

Wow, looks like it turns a guitar into an autoharp!

You say that like it's a bad thing...

[Bob Scrutchfield]

I always get confused when I'm in those C flat and E sharp keys.

[Paul Kotapish]

So here are three pickers--all with capos on--that don't sound the least bit like squawky parakeets to me.



If you play the conventional bluegrass repertoire with a more-or-less conventional approach to bluegrass-style mandolin, there is little or no need (or excuse) for a capo. But if you are going for an entirely different sound with lots of open drone strings--as in the way Andy plays the tune above--the capo can be an invaluable tool.

I play loads of tunes in Bb and F and even the occasional piece in Eb or Ab without the capo, but certain things just sound better when I have the option of hitting the open strings and letting them ring while playing melodies on adjacent strings. The trade off for a slightly more constricted tone with the capo is worth it in those instances.