Is a mandolin required for Bluegrass?

**sjf** · Jan-01-2012, 5:49pm

A band I like, the infamous stringdusters, recently and their wonderful mandolin player Jesse Cobb leave the band. After experimenting with a few other mandolin players, they have decided to proceed sans mandolin.

On another board I frequent a discussion broke out as to whether or not a band can really be considered "bluegrass" if there is no mandolin involved. For what little it's worth I say YES but am interested to hear other people opinions... especially those who know a lot more about music than me. Thought this would be an interesting place to ask.

**Chris "Bucket" Thomas** · Jan-01-2012, 6:33pm

Can of Worms Alert! There is not a definitive answer.

A good place to start is: What defines Bluegrass? What makes it what it is? Who defined Bluegrass & what are "their standards"? Remember, Bluegrass evolved out of one man's style and a defining grouping of 5 musicians and their instruments.

You can guess what my answer is

**Scotti Adams** · Jan-01-2012, 6:48pm

Not even touching this one. If I did..I would have to difine the meaning of Bluegrass which in this day and time seams to have no boundries.

**George R. Lane** · Jan-01-2012, 6:49pm

I would say yes, but it wouldn't be complete.

**Beanzy** · Jan-01-2012, 6:52pm

It'll sound different. But if you've a really good fiddler to alternate solos and scrunchy 'chops' and a banjo player with a good imagination you can work the sound to fill the space.

**John McCoy** · Jan-01-2012, 6:55pm

Of all the instruments mentioned on the IBMA website, only the banjo is described as "integral" to bluegrass music.

(FWIW)

== John ==

**Jeffff** · Jan-01-2012, 7:00pm

I think that you might be able to get away with out a mandolin player. You would need a guitar player along the lines of Freddie Green to supply the chop.

**Scotti Adams** · Jan-01-2012, 7:06pm

Those who know..know. Those who dont have some studying to do. Your not going to get an answer here that will tell you " I know what Bluegrass is" I suggest you get some reading and listening material dating back to 1949 on the subject then you maybe able to derive at a decison on your own. There are countless articles, books etc on the matter. Do your homework and study...become a student and then hopefully graduate. BTW this http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B004YF9SA0 is not Buegrass...If it is its.. in its most loosest form. Its got Thiles name to it so thats why its up for a Grammy. So..its got a mandolin so its Bluegrass right? This http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B005OH0B76 is a more truer definition of Bluegrass. To have these 2 in the same boat for the same award is absurd. Go Del...you deserve it. Nuff said

**Jeffff** · Jan-01-2012, 7:27pm

It Bluegrass static then? It there no place for change?

I am not being contrary, I really wish to know.

Jazz didn't stop with Louie Armstrong. The Blues didn't stop with Robert Johnson and rock didn't stop with Buddy Holly.

I may not know what bluegrass is, but I know what I like.

**Scotti Adams** · Jan-01-2012, 7:36pm

Yes..there is room for change. Thats were "Newgrass" came into the scene. Is it Bluegrass because it has the same insruments as Bluegrass? Who knows? Some say Bluegrass died when Carter Stanley died...some say it died when Bill died...or when Jimmy Martin died. Some say SKaggs is the king. Others say Thile is grass.....so my friend the definitve answer is..theres no answer. Is it a fiddle or a violin?

**Jeffff** · Jan-01-2012, 7:58pm

Fair enough.

**jmalmsteen** · Jan-01-2012, 8:36pm

I think we are a little biased here! Yes, of course you need a mandolin to have a proper bluegrass band

**Tim2723** · Jan-01-2012, 8:38pm

Can a band play Bluegrass music without a mandolin or can they call themselves a Bluegrass band without one? I think those are subtly different questions. I have no answer. Like pornography, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

**Philphool** · Jan-01-2012, 9:00pm

Didn't Flatt & Scruggs go for quite a while without a mando? Fiddle & Dobro filled the bill. Were they Bluegrass?

**jim simpson** · Jan-01-2012, 9:07pm

At one time I was playing guitar in a band where we lost our mandolin player. We tried to find a mandolin or fiddlel player without success. The band knew I owned a mandolin plus we had another guitar player so I was nudged into the mando spot. I had to learn under fire and 20 years later mandolin is still my main instrument. I currently play in two bands where we have fiddle in both but no banjo in one. I'd say you could play bluegrass in almost any cofiguration of instruments.

**TonyP** · Jan-01-2012, 9:12pm

Isn't a little weird talking about "bluegrass" and the Dusters anyway? when they don't want to be known as a bluegrass band? Or that's what I thought the point of the banjo players speech at IBMA and his blog seemed to imply. I'm soooo confused...

**greg_tsam** · Jan-01-2012, 9:13pm

Originally Posted by Scotti Adams

.....so my friend the definitve answer is..theres no answer. Is it a fiddle or a violin?

It depends on the redneck holding it.

**Terry Allan Hall** · Jan-01-2012, 9:15pm

Originally Posted by Philphool

Didn't Flatt & Scruggs go for quite a while without a mando? Fiddle & Dobro filled the bill. Were they Bluegrass?

Good answer, and yes, I'd call Flatt & Scruggs "bluegrass", although ol' Bill might disagree...

OTOH, a bluegrass band w/o a good mandolinist better have a really good guitarist, fiddler and banjo-picker...and a dobro and 2nd guitarist helps a lot, too.

**Psyberbilly** · Jan-01-2012, 9:28pm

Originally Posted by John McCoy

Of all the instruments mentioned on the IBMA website, only the banjo is described as "integral" to bluegrass music.

(FWIW)

== John ==

This topic is indeed a can of worms ! As a recovering banjo player ( who still reall likes a banjo , yeah I said it ! ) one of my favorite albums of all time , and I would dare to call it bluegrass , is Tony Rice's often discussed "Manzanita" . Could bluegrass be done without a mandolin ? With the right players , most assuredly . I don't think just anyone could pull it off. .

**Willie** · Jan-01-2012, 9:54pm

Some of Flatt and Scruggs and also some of The Stanleys never had a mandolin, early Reno and Smiley didn`t have one either (I should really know about them ist hand)...

I can`t describe Bluegrass and won`t try ANY MORE...I have seen bands that have been booked on "Bluegrass" festivals and they didn`t have a mandolin either....I don`t think bluegrass can be defined by the instruments that make up a band but more the way the song is presented and a lot of times the story that it is telling....Of course that is subjective, some rock and roll songs have been played by "Bluegrass Bands", some old country songs and also some Irish songs...

Willie

**Kip Carter** · Jan-01-2012, 10:03pm

I would agree that bluegrass can't be defined by the instrumentation. Just as the mandolin is not limited to a bluegrass instrument. I think one of the underlying things that interested me in the mandolin was in fact its versatility across a wide range of music styles.

To me music is a lot like love... it is of the moment and you can only truly appreciate it if you find yourself in that moment. And each style of music presents it own face to that romance.
Kip...

**Toycona** · Jan-01-2012, 10:04pm

Yes...

**sjf** · Jan-01-2012, 10:29pm

Originally Posted by KenCar

I would agree that bluegrass can't be defined by the instrumentation. Just as the mandolin is not limited to a bluegrass instrument. I think one of the underlying things that interested me in the mandolin was in fact its versatility across a wide range of music styles.

To me music is a lot like love... it is of the moment and you can only truly appreciate it if you find yourself in that moment. And each style of music presents it own face to that romance.
Kip...

^^^this.... and I'm kinda sorry I asked the question (I'm the one who started this thread). I guess it's in the pursuit of an answer that the true answer lay.

And to the person who rated this thread "terrible"... ain't no time to hate. It was an honest question.... quit being such a miserable curmudgeon.

**KarlM** · Jan-02-2012, 2:50am

Separating "bluegrass" from what might be called "mountain music" seems to kind of come down to personal feelings when you get into drawing a line. The latter might have just a mandolin and guitar, or banjo and guitar, and maybe fiddle thrown in, or just a solo banjo or guitar. My own sense is that a bluegrass band should have at least two of banjo, mandolin, and fiddle. But that's pretty much pulled out of my behind

**ralph johansson** · Jan-02-2012, 7:29am

Originally Posted by Jeffff

I think that you might be able to get away with out a mandolin player. You would need a guitar player along the lines of Freddie Green to supply the chop.

There have been several bands without a mandolin. IIRC The Lonesome Pine Fiddlers didn't use one. F&S had periods with no mandolin, e.g., when Mac Wiseman was with the band, but also later. When Vernon Derrick was with Jimmy Martin he alternated between mandolin and fiddle so on some numbers there was no mandolin.

When the Stanley Brothers toured in Europe in 1966 there was no mandolin in the group.

Freddie Green's rhythm playing with the Basie band had absolutly nothing in common with the mandolin chop in BG (or the fiddle scratch or the banjo snap). And sock rhythm guitar cannot replace a mandolin and there is no need to.

And how much chopping did Monroe did with the 45-48 group with F&S?