Let's Talk Price

**onlyagibsonisgoodenuff** · Dec-04-2004, 9:16am

Right now there's a thread going on about Paul Duff mandolins, and a while back, as you all know there was quite an interesting banter concerning BRW's. All fine instruments, to be sure. The discussion I'd like to instigate here is do you think it's fair to compare a 3, 4 or even up to 7 thousand dollar mandolin with those in the 10 to 20 and up range? Kinda like putting a Duff up there with a Dude! Would a fellow who has the five figure instrument find something lacking in comparison if he was to compare?

I know from my own experience, I had a Collings MF-5 which, by itself, was a spectacular mandolin. If I'd never played a varnished Fern, I'd be happy to play the Collings forever! But when I'd get them both out and play them side by side, The Gibson was clearly better. $5,000 better? I don't know. But if I didn't already own it, I'd probably see the Collings in a different light, and be pining away in the back of my mind for the higher priced Gibson, which was so much better!

It's probably like splitting hairs here, but I was just curious as to what others think. I know I see all these great instruments on the Mandolin Cafe, and I wonder how they'd sound with the one I already have. I wish we could all get together in one big room and pass 'em around just to see.

**Nick Triesch** · Dec-04-2004, 9:35am

Yes, I think it's fair to compare less expensive mandolins to very expensive ones. Years back a good friend of mine bought a very nice Gilchrist F type and it sounded good. But I owned at the time a Givins A5 type mando and it just killed the fancy F type. It would really tick my friend off because every once in a while he would ask to compare the two and every time he would he would play the Givins for a long time and get ticked off all over again. It would just crack me up. After a few years he sold the Gil and bought a Gibson F5l and then a Flatiron F5. Then at a bluegrass festival he wanted to compare my Flatiron F5 artist to his Gibson and Flatiron and mine sounded better again in front of a bunch of folks! Well he got mad again and said mine sounded better but it will never sound like a Loar! Anyway, point is the little guys can surprise you. I bet the are a ton of stories out there like mine.

**John Flynn** · Dec-04-2004, 9:56am

Well first off, there are different perceptions of what sounds good. One person may think the Gibson, for instance, is the epitome of tone. Others may have a different idea. Those preferences are irrelavant to price or brand name and make a lot of this "apples and oranges."

Another factor is "hype" and perception. As marketers know well, when a product is associated with strong emotions, when a product is used on or close to the body, when the product looks good, and/or when a product has a "household" brand name, the perception of that product can get manipulated. Sure, more expensive, famous instruments should sound better and often do. But we have to be careful of another factor: We also WANT to believe that the more expensive, more famous brand mando sounds better before we even hear it. We want to believe it so badly that it can actually distort our perceptions. People who believe they are immune to this effect are actually the most vulnerable to it.

So in answer to your question, I think it is fair to compare any two mandos, as long as we appreciate that great sound is in the ear of the beholder. I think blind tastings are the only way to really tell. If the more expensive, branded mandos really are better they should win every time. If not, shame on them.

**Nick Triesch** · Dec-04-2004, 10:20am

Sorry mando johnny, the Givens sounded better! We have been over this a hundred times. My little girls A type Kentucky sounds like a stick with a cigar box nailed to it. I KNOW it does not sound like my Weber F5. Just like I know my Goodall Guitar sounds better than the Tinny D28 I used to own. Now don't get me wrong, I've played some great D28's but My Goodall sounded much better than mine. There was no IMHO involved. Nick

**onlyagibsonisgoodenuff** · Dec-04-2004, 10:23am

Originally Posted by (mandocat @ Dec. 04 2004, 10:35)

#After a few years he sold the Gil and bought a Gibson F5l and then a Flatiron F5. #

I would have thought he'd bought a Givens since that was what he liked so much.

I don't really mean to single out any particular brand here. I just have experience with the ones I've owned. I know that the mandolins I've owned all sounded great, and not all were big name makers. I've had a couple from small, but pretty well known makers. Last summer while attending festivals, however, I noticed that even while an instrument sounds good by itself, or even with guitar accompaniment, not all of these would cut it in a band or jam situation. That's why it'd be fun to get a bunch of 'em together . . . hey, maybe I should go to Mandofest!

**Brian Aldridge** · Dec-04-2004, 10:58am

Fred, your last point is right on the money. The true test IMHO of how good an instrument is, is how well it does in a band setting. Of course my opinion is based on the fact that that is how I use my mandolin- in a band situation. I have had some mandolins that were killer playing them alone, but were easily buried by guitars and banjos. If a mandolin is real woody/bassy, it may sound good by itself, but usually will "wash" out when you tromp on it real hard, and get covered up when used in a band situation. Of course, there are always exceptions. Now to the original topic; I do not think it is fair to compare mandolins that commonly trade in the 5K range to mandolins that commonly trade in the 10K range. There are usually reasons, and the market has a way seeking it's own level. The exception would be an up and coming builder who has as yet not been discovered. The real question is, how does one determine $5000 dollars worth of tone?

**onlyagibsonisgoodenuff** · Dec-04-2004, 11:08am

Yup, Brian, I agree with that test. I know different people say there is a different perception of what sounds good, but I'm not asking what sounds better, one brand or another. I just wondered what there is about a fifteen thousand dollar mandolin that makes it so great compared to a five thousand dollar instrument.

I know that in my situation, the Gibson was SO much easier to hear in my band and in jamming, that I don't have to play quite as hard, and as a result, I can play better. Now I'm not saying the Gibson is the best, I'm just saying that so far, it's the best for me. Or should I say good enuff.

**Brian Aldridge** · Dec-04-2004, 11:15am

Fred, I was edit/adding to my post when you replied. It may not be politically correct, but I will go ahead and say that Gibson UNDERSTANDS this tone thing, and it is tone that does this. The reason they understand this tone thing so well is because Charlie Derrington is at the helm, and he knows Loars. There I said it, now lopp off my head. There are others who know this too, and there mandos sale for 20K plus. Makes Gibson a heck of a value, I think. There are the up and comings too that are getting there. I have a new Smith Creek that is one whale of a mando.

**Chris Baird** · Dec-04-2004, 11:22am

Price is a funny thing and certainly not a clear indicator of quality. Some Gils sold for $3k a long time ago. Did they start out worth $3k and then get better along the way until now they are worth $30k? Of course not. There are a good many mandolins today going for lesser amounts that will in the long run be worth much more. And there are some very good sounding mandolins that will never be worth much because of what they are. A friend of mine has a very fine Flatiron, one of the best bluegrass mandolins I've ever played, and it will never be worth as much as a friends Nugget which, to me, sounds rather common. I'm sure the entire Nugget line is far better than the entire Flatiron line but, in this one instance is just ain't so. Still that Flatiron is stuck with whatever the common flatiron is worth and same with the Nugget.

**onlyagibsonisgoodenuff** · Dec-04-2004, 11:26am

When I was learning to play Bluegrass, Gibson was the mandolin of choice, and so it was with banjos, too. Martin guitars, particularly D-28's were the standard as well. I think this is one reason why the sound of these instruments conjure up emotions of "Yeah, that's the sound" in people. Especially some of the people who listened to the old school bands and even some of the second generation bands.

I think the modern sound of mandolins like Collings and other makers who are not trying to copy the Loar sound, is great, but it just doesn't fit my ear as to correctness, if you will. I think Charlie or Big Joe said it concerns the mid-tones of the mandolin.

Having said that, I will say that I'm waiting for my new Collings mandolin anyway.

The main reason I started this thread is that many times I see mandolins in the 3-5K range for sale on this site , and I'm tempted to grab one. Then I have to remind myself that it would be hard to beat what I already have!

**JimW** · Dec-04-2004, 11:27am

Fred and Brian, I think you guys nailed it. Sound and tone are in the ear of the beholder. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, remember it is just that, THEIR opinion. An example would be, a Jazz or Celtic player, you give them an F5, with it's fast note decay and cutting tone, they'd probably frown at you, but that is the exact traits a bluegrasser looks for in a mandolin.

Jim

**Scotti Adams** · Dec-04-2004, 12:39pm

If it sounds good..play it....now matter what the cost is.

**Big Joe** · Dec-06-2004, 10:50pm

I think you are all correct. Tone is relevant to ones exposure and experience. As our ears develop by experiencing a variety of instruments and as it matures our opinion of what sounds good changes. I had an Alvarez F model when I began playing and it sounded mighty good to me. At that time it sounded as good as any Gibson to me. As my opportunity to hear and play more mandolins I realized the Flatiron I saw blew it away. That was a wonderful mandolin till I heard my first Gilchrist. I thought I would have to sell the kids and the house to own that one and it would have been worth it. Until I heard a Master Model a few years ago it was the best I had heard. I love my mandolins and to me they sound better than anything I've owned before. That does not negate the quality of the instruments I've owned previously. It only shows our taste and expectation develop with time. For years I did not like the sound of the Loar. It was too midrangy for me. I've come to love the tone of the Loar and it has overwhelmed me. I still like the sound of many mandolins, but that tone...THAT tone is what gets me now. What is any mandolin worth? Whatever you are willing to pay to get it. For me, I was willing to pay the price for my MM. I guess there are no wrong answers on this one. There may be a couple builders who are worth what the big boys are, but by and large the market determines the value by many standards. The final one is always the tone.

**mike_c** · Dec-07-2004, 12:11am

another point is that a true "master" mandolin has the total package..it has a remarkable feel, and great response, projects well,,has a great finish. great tone that is complex and the notes are even up and down the neck.. quality is much more than which mando is louder ---i believe the old saying---a thing of beauty is a joy forever..and great mandos just have a certain quality that makes them hard the put down...

**mike_c** · Dec-07-2004, 12:14am

i forgot to add to the above post--no, i don't think you can compare the true "master" mando with a mando that is a good bargain for the money spent..it's apples and oranges

**Desert Rose** · Dec-07-2004, 5:02am

Of course its not only fairbut very legitimate to compare any mandolin in any price range with the high priced spread.

Make those high priced guys earn their money! And dont forget the awful human tendency to judge sound by the amount of zeros on the tag.

There are some awfully lacking mandolins out there with the signature of Mr. Loar on them but the owners seem oblivious

Scott

**kudzugypsy** · Dec-07-2004, 5:52am

a true tale that happened not long ago may help this discussion:
i accompanied a really good fiddle player on his never ending search for the "one" perfect violin. we met a prominate dealer who laid out about a half dozen instruments in his price range. this was the 6-8K range, sort of the same price range we are discussing comparing with $20-30K instruments. the fact that he agreed NOT to look at the labels until he picked the best instrument was to make it a total aural decision. so, after an hour, he picks one. is all excited, it is clearly the winner. he asks who made the violin. the reply: "i dont know", it was an unlabled violin with questionable lineage. the price was $6k, the low end of his search. bottom line, my friend who loved the violin against all the others, and ones at the top end of the price, DID NOT want to pay $6k for an unlabeled violin.............

so what does this have to do with the price of mandolins?? well, lets assume that as stated earlier, there was a mid priced mando (givens, duff, gibson, BRW, etc) that in a blind mando tasting clearly won over other high-end instruments. if the owner/dealer would then say, "i'll take $15K for it", how many would lay down the money? even if it were a better instrument.

mandolins are no different from any other goods, people will still only pay what the market will dictate, and, what they preceive it to be worth in the open market. i'm sure someone out there would gladly lay out $80K for even the worst sounding loar.

i will add that it is really impossible to measure anything until you have established a clear reference for what the HIGHEST point is. until you have played LOTS of really high end instruments, and internalized their characteristics, then all other comparisons are mute. if the best mandolin you have ever played was a Flatiron (just an example), then you have to use that as your highest point. when you are someone like tony williamson (mandolin central), then you have moved on to a whole other level. there are things he is looking for that most players havent a clue about.

**onlyagibsonisgoodenuff** · Dec-07-2004, 7:02am

Big Joe--

I noticed your mandolin acquisition kept moving up in price. Was there ever a time when you wanted a cheaper mandolin, not because it was cheaper, but because it sounded better than what you already had?

**fatt-dad** · Dec-07-2004, 7:09am

Not to take anything from the above posts, but a different perspective is the "investment" potential. I don't care how great someones Ibanez sounds or whether it beat a Loar in a blind test, it won't have the monetary value. I have a great-sounding Flatiron A5-1 with Bill Monroe Strings and a snake tail in the sound box - ha, but it still won't fetch over $2,000.00 (I like to dream), whether it sounds better than a MM or not.

My choice (O.K. my wife was involved as well) has been to strive for the "best" mandolins I can find in my price range. I've done a pretty good job and love what I've kept so far. That said, I have no doubt that my secret desire is to have the distressed master model (even at the higher prices) as I darn-well bet you they have the tone and will keep their investment potential in the years to come. I also bet you the same is true for the more noted independent luthiers (i.e., Smart, Wiens, etc.) as their prices not only reflect their success in appealing to the tone, but also the market potential of their instruments.

f-d

**Big Joe** · Dec-07-2004, 8:41am

Hey Fred...Price was never an issue. It was the isntrument. I did have other priced instruments in the mix. They were fine instruments, but not what I wanted. Sometimes they were what I could get and they were appreciated till I got what I wanted. Thank you for asking.

**cutbait2** · Dec-07-2004, 1:53pm

it seems to me there is more similarity at the top than difference in tone. one may be more even, another more bass, but not as dissimilar as from top to bottom. so is a 5K brand X not as good as a 10 K brand y, (all else being equal) i my opinion in this range the price has nothing to do with it, mainly the "fame" of the builder and what the market will bear. i think this opinion is supported by the great variety of builders instruments which professional players use. also the fact that it was just a couple years ago that you could get most of the top builders F's for about 5k, including ordering a gil for 7.5k. so what made prices go up 50-200%? it wasn't sudden improvements in quality.

**kudzugypsy** · Dec-07-2004, 2:00pm

i agree with joe, price shouldnt really be the issue...either on the cheap side or the high side....although we all have our limits. you are more likely to pay too much than come across the rare "steal". people who invest in an instrument should do just as any other investment (it IS an investment at the prices they command) and buy what they are comfortable with that they can grow with over time. the main issue i see is someone NOT looking 5+ years down the road and seeing where they want to go musically. they buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, etc. more than likely over time (unless they are darn good at trading) you will be worse off (dollar wise) that way.

i will add, there is nothing wrong with intermediate instruments IF you feel that will satisfy you as you grow musically. i started out 15 years ago just like *everyone* else with a $125 imported a style, the last mando i bought was a BIG investment, but i knew as soon as i played it, that it was the one i'd keep forever (i'm not just saying that, i feel like zeus throwing lighting bolts from the heavens when i play it!!) price "was" an issue to some extent, but i had passed on many high-end mandos before i found one. of course, had i known that the gilchrist's i passed over at $3500, another at $4500, another at $6500 were going to be worth $25K, i would have just got em all. what is funny is how over time you look back and realize that what you thought was too much money just a few short years ago was actually a screaming deal.

btw, the mandolin i finally found that met all my criteria wasnt a gilchrist, gibson, nugget, dude,etc....it was a Paganoni!

**jaybee** · Dec-07-2004, 2:40pm

I don't know whether or not I'm being honest with myself and there is no way presently to tell. #But some time ago there was a rumored raffle for a MM mandolin. #In talking about it with my wife she asked, "if you won it what would you do with it?" #I answered, "if it sounded as good and played as well as my F5G, I'd keep it and play it. #If it didn't, I'd probably sell it." #I think that's an honest feeling (would that I were faced w/ that choice. #I love my present 5G and have not played another mandolin that has the all-round appeal for me. #So far.

#

**onlyagibsonisgoodenuff** · Dec-07-2004, 6:08pm

I think my whole point here is that even though I have a wonderful mandolin (Varnished Fern), I can't help but notice the great reviews some of the other mandos get here on the Cafe. Not to mention the pictures.

It's not that I don't love my mando, I just have a hard time shaking the feeling that there might be another Gilchrist out there selling his product at 3-7K, and I'll miss out again. I can still remember when a new Gil was $3500.

I think if I can just avoid the classifieds, I'll be alright!

**Cogger** · Dec-07-2004, 7:49pm

I can only offer my opinion based on very limited experience. There is a huge difference between my cheap Fender F style and my Flatiron Festival F. And I mean HUGE! EVERYTHING about the Flatiron is better, much better. Now, just the other night I sat mere feet from Ronnie McCoury while he played his Gilchrist. You don't have to know anythng about mandolins to know that sound was amazing! I think up to a point the more you spend, the better the instrumant. I have no idea at what point this ceases to be true!