The case against scroll "strengtheners"

**Jim Rowland** · Dec-13-2011, 11:04am

It is seldom that I show an F style mandolin in public that I don't get the question (a veiled criticism,I think)concerning validation of the scrolls,points,Florida etc in terms of utility. The same person usually turns right around and starts emoting about the beauty of the inlay. I want to say,"Same thing,you boob",but,of course I don't. A fine sounding mandolin does not need a nicely shaped headstock,body,inlay,binding,engraved tuners or tailpiece,pickguard or beautiful coloration and finish. It's all about purty,and,as John implies,demand. Read some of the reports from mandolin lovers who take a twelve power loupe to every minute detail of an instrument to appreciate this phenomenon.

Jim

**Dale Ludewig** · Dec-13-2011, 2:19pm

Great points (seriously, no puns intended). Builders all know about the loupe inspection, at least the attitude. That's a reason I try to do all my binding and inlay work wearing one under a 1500 watt halogen light setup.

I am becoming a bit concerned about John's fingernails, though. I see no cuts or abrasions.

**sunburst** · Dec-13-2011, 2:33pm

I have industrial strength fingernails, Dale. I've measured the thickness of my thumbnails at over .042", and I can use them as screwdrivers, scrapers, and other shop "tools". My manicurist uses fret nipper and shop files on them because those little clippers they sell aren't up to the job (though the belt sander works pretty well!). Fingernails like these seldom show much damage, especially since I'm having others do most of my work for me these days...

**Dale Ludewig** · Dec-13-2011, 2:53pm

Yeah, well........
If your nails are truly up to that thickness (!) I think you need to check your diet. And, on top of that, I think they're thick enough that you could sell them for inlay. Or, to get back on topic (why would we want to do that?), you could sell them as inserts into scroll strengthening devices. At least they'd flex.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Dec-14-2011, 12:47am

If a scroll strengthener is to be used,then it needs to be 'embeded' into the headstock wood,not simply placed under the h/s veneer as in the case of John's example. A well designed drill jig with a good drill guide & a stop on the drill itself to gauge the depth of the hole would be my choice. I'd drill a 3/16" dia. hole thro.the scroll into the h/s 'proper', epoxy in a length of Aluminium rod & close the hole with a small plug of wood. Years back,i repaired & reinforced the broken headstocks on more than one old 'Zither Banjo' in this way. Of course working as an apprentice in an aircraft factory at the time,allowed me the use of lots of tooling & materials,but the repairs did work very well,
Ivan

**sunburst** · Dec-14-2011, 12:59am

Ivan, a well placed blow would break the scroll, though likely leave it hanging from the possibly bent aluminum rod and and leave the repair person facing epoxy to remove, aluminum to deal with, and less gluing surface to repair the scroll because of the hole drilled for the aluminum. I still think we're better off letting the little critters break off cleanly, allowng a clean repair with no reinforcement to deal with.

**Ivan Kelsall** · Dec-14-2011, 1:19am

John - I understand your point,but a reinforced scroll 'should' be up to taking more impact than an un-reinforced one if the job's done correctly. However,all that's in the hands of the builder - to do or not to do. Re.a 'bent aluminum rod' - some specifications of aluminum,are pretty tough & over a short length eg.1",you'd have to place a piece in a vice & hammer it to bend it.
My own prescription for an un-broken scroll ?,when i'm holding my Mandolin,look around me before i move -at my age, i usually have to do that even when i'm not holding my Mandolin,

Ivan

**Ben Milne** · Dec-14-2011, 1:50am

How about making the headstock scroll user serviceable and embedding some magnets?

**sunburst** · Dec-14-2011, 2:02am

For anyone who is interested, it looks like this now.

**Bertram Henze** · Dec-14-2011, 2:57am

I wonder if some elastic device would prevent scroll breakage, i.e. either a tiny pair of double-acting spring hinges or a full rubber scroll?

Originally Posted by Ben Milne

How about making the headstock scroll user serviceable and embedding some magnets?

Hey, this idea is even better, just like a removable car radio. Plus, the separation line would not have to be straight but could form some elegant curve to match the scroll.

**MikeEdgerton** · Dec-14-2011, 5:47am

The sensible thing would be to simply route a line where the scroll is without going all the way through but nobody is going to buy that as an option

Too much like the lump scroll Gibsons.

**Henry Eagle** · Dec-14-2011, 7:11am

How about trying to be careful? I know of some Loars with the scroll still intact.

**Denny Gies** · Dec-14-2011, 7:32am

Wouldn't a pin put into small holes drilled into each inner face of the broken scroll be better than a biscuit?

**JEStanek** · Dec-14-2011, 7:45am

Another reason I like the Monteleone headstock design. I think John has accrately shown a weakness in the F Style headstock and how a proficient repairman can deal with these flaws when a break occurs. All the ideas are like trying to make a better high heel stilleto shoe and make the heel stonger or keep people from falling in them. It is what it is.

As long as the Gibson F5 Headstock is what people really want, then this is an issue they will have to deal with when the unfortunate accident occurs.

Jamie

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-14-2011, 8:25am

John what model of Gibson was that? From the wear and tuners it looks like a vintage F-2/F-4 but the nut looks too narrow and they would not have had a "strengthener" would they? In fact, I guess I did not even know Gibson did that to any of their mandolins -- even now?

**MikeEdgerton** · Dec-14-2011, 8:34am

I think Gibson has done that for many many years.

Here's an older thread on the same subject.

In that thread there is a link to a Frank Ford article on www.frets.com where he says that Gibson was doing this before the introduction of the F-5.

**Steve Ostrander** · Dec-14-2011, 8:43am

I'm confused about one thing: is the "scroll strengthener" factory installed or post-factory installed?

**MikeEdgerton** · Dec-14-2011, 8:43am

Factory installed, before the peghead veneer is glued on. Take a look at the first paragraph and photo in this article.

**Mandolin Mick** · Dec-14-2011, 9:19am

This is an interesting thread.

By the way ... I think there's nothing wrong with a mandolin being eye candy. If I'm going to spend all this time with it, I want it to look beautiful.

**sunburst** · Dec-14-2011, 10:07am

Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel

John what model of Gibson was that? From the wear and tuners it looks like a vintage F-2/F-4 but the nut looks too narrow and they would not have had a "strengthener" would they? In fact, I guess I did not even know Gibson did that to any of their mandolins -- even now?

I can't read the serial number on the label, it's been obscured, but it's an F-2 from about 1920. The nut is the normal width, though it is a replacement. (Interestingly, I was admiring the nicely made, polished bone nut when I was stringing it back up. Then I realized I forgot to fill out a repair tag with the owners contact info, so I looked in the case and found an old repair tag from earlier when I installed frets and a bone nut!)

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-14-2011, 10:54am

Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton

I think Gibson has done that for many many years.

Here's an older thread on the same subject.

In that thread there is a link to a Frank Ford article on www.frets.com where he says that Gibson was doing this before the introduction of the F-5.

I wonder whether it was done on all of them though. I once had a 1916 F-2 that I bought with the main curlicue broken off (Bill Monroe special) and there was no sign of a "biscuit" ever having been on that one.

Likewise, I had another from 1920 that had been broken before I got it -- it was fixed but very poorly and it more of less fell off one day when I pulled out of the case. For that one I fixed it with metal pin and black epoxy glue (sorry John -- now I know better). But that one had no biscuit either -- besides I thought that was originally Roger Siminoff's idea?

Did Monroe's F-5 have a biscuit then?

OT: THANKS A MILLION for the link to the mandocello top repair! just what I was looking for!!

**Bernie Daniel** · Dec-14-2011, 11:00am

Originally Posted by sunburst

I can't read the serial number on the label, it's been obscured, but it's an F-2 from about 1920. The nut is the normal width, though it is a replacement. (Interestingly, I was admiring the nicely made, polished bone nut when I was stringing it back up. Then I realized I forgot to fill out a repair tag with the owners contact info, so I looked in the case and found an old repair tag from earlier when I installed frets and a bone nut!)

The small world syndrome strikes again!

**woodwizard** · Dec-14-2011, 11:48am

Granted we have seen many broken headstock scrolls but when you think about how many are out there. There's so many more that have not been broke. Much more than broke ones. I'm not just saying that in defense of the weak scroll but that if you bang just about any delicate thing it's going to break. Just saying ...

**Darryl Wolfe** · Dec-14-2011, 12:11pm

I always assumed that "plug" went all the way through. But it IS a "bisquit"

**megafiddle** · Dec-14-2011, 8:28pm

Originally Posted by sunburst

The reason the gap wouldn't close is that biscuit of cross-grain wood in there. I chalked the head stock to improve the fit. You can see the chalk transfer that I got starting out. The edge of the biscuit is interfering with the fit and keeping the gap from closing.

Could it be that the biscuit expanded more than the headstock, or that the headstock shrank
more than the biscuit and caused the original break?

It must have all fit together when originally built.