The case against scroll "strengtheners"

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:09pm

This mandolin came into the shop yesterday with the scroll broken off of the head stock.

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:12pm

As you can see, it was mostly a clean seam separation, except for that disc of wood they put in there to "strengthen" the scroll.

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:16pm

I didn't think to start taking pictures before I cleaned up the old glue (with De-Glue Goo), but it had been broken off before and re-glued with hide glue (thankfully!). There was no contact at the old seam, and only "stings" of glue between the pieces there. This is the best I could do to align the pieces.

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:19pm

The reason the gap wouldn't close is that biscuit of cross-grain wood in there. I chalked the head stock to improve the fit. You can see the chalk transfer that I got starting out. The edge of the biscuit is interfering with the fit and keeping the gap from closing.

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:21pm

Using files, scrapers, and small blades, I worked away the wood where the chalk transferred (chalk fit) until I had contact everywhere. (It's hard to see the chalk transfer because it is not heavy, but I'm satisfied that this is the best fit I can practically attain.)

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:25pm

As I type this, it looks like this, with a generous application of hot hide glue in the joint. The joint is nearly half end grain, though, and the fit, though the best I could practically attain, is not as good as two good, flat surfaces. I hope it doesn't get bumped hard again, because if it does, it's going to pop right back off of there!

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 2:27pm

Sooo... do you really want to install one of those "strengtheners" in the peghead scroll? You've probably already guessed my opinion.

**Rob Grant** · Dec-12-2011, 4:39pm

John, I totally agree. That suggestion of a "biscuit" addition always looked like a waste of time. I basically strengthen the whole peghead by using slightly thicker veneers on the back and front. As I make my own veneers from local timbers, that's an easy option for me.

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**Malcolm G.** · Dec-12-2011, 4:45pm

Congratulations on your perseverance, John!

And thanks for taking us amateurs along on this little trip.

I love these tips n tricks.

**Max Girouard** · Dec-12-2011, 4:55pm

Thanks for the pictures and write up John, nice work!

**Jim Rowland** · Dec-12-2011, 7:29pm

Thanks,John. I see you've added a manicurist to your staff.
Jim

**sunburst** · Dec-12-2011, 7:33pm

I've had manicurists on staff for years, here at the Manor, as well as... other professionals. Life is good!

**mandolirius** · Dec-12-2011, 7:41pm

Well, if it's supposed to be a scroll strengthener it didn't work.

**dunwell** · Dec-13-2011, 7:42am

Originally Posted by sunburst

Sooo... do you really want to install one of those "strengtheners" in the peghead scroll? You've probably already guessed my opinion.

That biscuit type doesn't do much. I do install an insert but I do a rectangle that extends a good bit more into the headstock area. I don't think that the type I install should fail in the way you see here. I also use maple for the insert so I don't think that would break. Hmmm, maybe what is needed there is just a bit of graphite bar epoxied in, that would be very strong but still be small.

Alan D.

**Fretbear** · Dec-13-2011, 8:01am

Nice that the inlay was spared; if it were installed any farther in it would have cracked it.

**PJ Doland** · Dec-13-2011, 8:14am

Rather than coming up with new and ingenious ways to strengthen the scroll, why don't we just STOP BUILDING MANDOLINS WITH A HEADSTOCK SCROLL THAT EXISTS FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN TO EVENTUALLY BREAK OFF?

**mandobassman** · Dec-13-2011, 8:39am

Originally Posted by PJ Doland

Rather than coming up with new and ingenious ways to strengthen the scroll, why don't we just STOP BUILDING MANDOLINS WITH A HEADSTOCK SCROLL THAT EXISTS FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN TO EVENTUALLY BREAK OFF?

Glad someone said it before me. That was exactly my thoughts.

**Pete Summers** · Dec-13-2011, 9:05am

Originally Posted by mandobassman

Glad someone said it before me. That was exactly my thoughts.

And me, thinking the same thing. Not only is it a weak spot, personally I find the whole ostentatious F design to be awkward, ugly and unnecessary, but I know there are people who love them. Beats me why, though.

Incidentally, just out of curiousity - I was wondering the reason for making repairs with hide glue? Wouldn't carpenter's glue that is impervious to moisture be a stronger bond for those type repairs which will not need to be disassembled in the future? Just wondering.

**Marc Berman** · Dec-13-2011, 9:11am

Originally Posted by PJ Doland

Rather than coming up with new and ingenious ways to strengthen the scroll, why don't we just STOP BUILDING MANDOLINS WITH A HEADSTOCK SCROLL THAT EXISTS FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN TO EVENTUALLY BREAK OFF?

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**Pete Summers** · Dec-13-2011, 9:24am

Originally Posted by Marc Berman

Much better.

**blueron** · Dec-13-2011, 9:37am

John's fascinating insight into the secrets of the repair world are always a pleasure to read.

I share some of the posters' views on the impracticality of the scrolled headstock, but I have yet to see any alternative that comes even close to matching the design delight of the 'traditional' look.

**Dobe** · Dec-13-2011, 9:57am

They should be detachable so you can go back & forth between 'Bill' & Or'ville' !

**sunburst** · Dec-13-2011, 10:10am

A few comments;

I agree that the way to prevent scrolls breaking off of pegheads is to build pegheads without scrolls, but there is a place in the market (a strong place!) for scroll and point bearing mandolins, so broken scroll repairs do and will steadily show up in repair shops. We can't wish it away.

I've repaired broken scrolls where the "strengthener" itself broke rather than coming out on one side like this one did. That is even harder to repair. (Wish I had pictures of that...)

Ultimately, cross-grain wood, composite "biscuit" material, carbon fiber... it doesn't matter what you put in there, if you hit it hard enough it will fail... something will fail, either the scroll or a larger part of the peghead. As I see it, we can't prevent scroll breakage (other than the previously mentioned scroll-less peghead) so repairs to scrolls are going to be needed. Why not make the repair easier and not but some sort of inset thing in there to interfere with the repair?

Hide glue is by far the best choice for the repair, IMO, because it will almost certainly have to be cleaned up and glued back on again when it gets broken off again. As you can see in the pictures, I was able to get the wood very clean for this repair, and that is because it was originally glued with hide glue and previously repaired with hide glue. The worst that could have happened would be that some well meaning, but uninformed, "repairman" had previously "repaired" it with epoxy, gorilla glue, superglue, or some such. Aliphatic would not have been as bad as those, but still would have presented more problem to clean up for a "proper" repair.

My mandolin #6 should be coming back in sometime to have the scroll glued back on for the third time. There's no "strengthener" in there, so it will be pretty straight forward (again), and eventually it will probably collide with a guitar peghead on stage and get knocked off again. There's nothing I can do about that, but I can make it easier on myself when the time comes to glue it again.

**BradKlein** · Dec-13-2011, 10:51am

Well, I certainly won't enter into a debate about whose is the 'best' headstock. But I will say, 'nice columbine inlay' Marc. (it is columbine, right?)

In defense of Gibson, the F-design is a masterpiece of its time and very very hard to improve upon aesthetically - but that headstock scroll is certainly an achilles heel.

**Marc Berman** · Dec-13-2011, 11:00am

Originally Posted by BradKlein

Well, I certainly won't enter into a debate about whose is the 'best' headstock. But I will say, 'nice columbine inlay' Marc. (it is columbine, right?)

In defense of Gibson, the F-design is a masterpiece of its time and very very hard to improve upon aesthetically - but that headstock scroll is certainly an achilles heel.

Yes it is. It's Lawrence Smart's "Idaho mountains signature headstock" with a columbine flower.
By the way I also like the look of the Gibson headstock and consider it a classic but when I ordered my Smart I wanted to go with his look.